Christians and Abortion
March 22nd 2008 04:40
The purpose of this blog is to teach basic principals of Christianity. My goal is not to offend anyone or their beliefs but simply educate all people on Christian values according to the bible, not myself or any other person’s agenda. I am saying this because I am going to explain the concept of abortion. Many people believe that a person can be a Christian and also condone abortion either in their own belief system or on another’s behalf via ‘personal choice’. Those that are not willing to learn what the bible, the word of God, has to say on this subject should leave now as it is not my intention to provoke any one to anger but merely to teach right from wrong.
It is a lie, a falsehood, to think that a true Christian could ever consider or suggest that an abortion is okay either in their own lives or to portray that it is okay for other’s to do it as a means to exercise freedom of choice. First of all, to be a Christian means to put others above your self. Therefore the very idea of an abortion is against all that we believe. A Christian would think of the life inside of them as more important than their own convenience. Christianity is not a faith of expediency but a moral standard by which to live our lives each and every day.
If you need more than this to convince you that God forbids this act, I will gladly share some scripture to read so that you may learn through biblically based truths.
• Genesis 1:27-28 (reproduce)
• Exodus 21:22 (recognition that an unborn baby is alive and if it is killed in the womb the murderer shall be punished with his life)
• Psalms 139:13-16 (recognition of an unborn baby as a God made life)
• Ecclesiastes 11:5 (again recognizing the unborn as a life)
• Isaiah 13:18 (prophecy of anger and destruction from God – one of the crimes of the wicked, that the unborn are murdered)
• Isaiah 44:24 (recognition that God makes the unborn in the womb)
To condone evil practices aside from your own life is the same as actually doing it yourself. As Christians we are to teach others right from wrong in a loving but firm manner as it is clearly defined in the bible. To do so hurts no one but can save a soul. If we say that it is a personal choice then we are merely masking an abomination to God with selfishness and holding no one higher than ourselves. It is not ‘her’ body that she is destroying but that of a baby whose heart beats within her.
As for instances of rape; to rape is a crime and should be punished but if a woman kills a baby that is the result of the rape then she is showing less mercy to an innocent person than even the rapist showed her. At least he let her live. If you would say that you have the right to live, why then wouldn’t a baby have that same right? When a criminal is punished the children do not pay with their lives for his crime. Imagine if for every sin you committed a family member was put to death. This does not make sense.
Sometimes even the worst offenses God uses to bring forth something good to the lives that had been afflicted with the injustice. Either we stand for righteousness or wickedness in all of our works… Where do you stand?
It is a lie, a falsehood, to think that a true Christian could ever consider or suggest that an abortion is okay either in their own lives or to portray that it is okay for other’s to do it as a means to exercise freedom of choice. First of all, to be a Christian means to put others above your self. Therefore the very idea of an abortion is against all that we believe. A Christian would think of the life inside of them as more important than their own convenience. Christianity is not a faith of expediency but a moral standard by which to live our lives each and every day.
If you need more than this to convince you that God forbids this act, I will gladly share some scripture to read so that you may learn through biblically based truths.
• Genesis 1:27-28 (reproduce)
• Exodus 21:22 (recognition that an unborn baby is alive and if it is killed in the womb the murderer shall be punished with his life)
• Psalms 139:13-16 (recognition of an unborn baby as a God made life)
• Ecclesiastes 11:5 (again recognizing the unborn as a life)
• Isaiah 13:18 (prophecy of anger and destruction from God – one of the crimes of the wicked, that the unborn are murdered)
To condone evil practices aside from your own life is the same as actually doing it yourself. As Christians we are to teach others right from wrong in a loving but firm manner as it is clearly defined in the bible. To do so hurts no one but can save a soul. If we say that it is a personal choice then we are merely masking an abomination to God with selfishness and holding no one higher than ourselves. It is not ‘her’ body that she is destroying but that of a baby whose heart beats within her.
As for instances of rape; to rape is a crime and should be punished but if a woman kills a baby that is the result of the rape then she is showing less mercy to an innocent person than even the rapist showed her. At least he let her live. If you would say that you have the right to live, why then wouldn’t a baby have that same right? When a criminal is punished the children do not pay with their lives for his crime. Imagine if for every sin you committed a family member was put to death. This does not make sense.
Sometimes even the worst offenses God uses to bring forth something good to the lives that had been afflicted with the injustice. Either we stand for righteousness or wickedness in all of our works… Where do you stand?
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Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Secondly, the Bible also says that women who have sex out of wedlock should be stoned, ditto for unruly children. Heck, even animals commit stoneable offences according to that "holy" book.
Thirdly, why do you insist on pushing your religious views onto the rest of us? You say it is not your intention to provoke to anger but then you provoke people such as me by having the audacity to write:
"Either we stand for righteousness or wickedness in all of our works… Where do you stand?"
So anyone who doesn't stand with you is wicked, right?
To so brazenly suggest that a woman who has being raped is worse than the man who raped her simply because she chooses to rid her body of the reminder of the incredible injustice she has suffered, shows a lack of so-called Christian 'values'. Oh how benevolent of the rapist to "at least let her live"! Why don't you just give him a medal and hurl a few stones at her while you are at it?
Truth be told, the fact that Bradish agrees with you does not bode well for you either.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
I don't know anything about TBT, but I like this blog because it uses Biblical references for everything. If you're so against the Bible, why are you reading about it?
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Now then, that aside, this blog is a teaching tool- if you don't like what it teaches feel free to go somewhere else and read what you do like. I will not allow rude behavior on my blog. If you think you know the bible so much better than I- please quote it here and let's really get into what the Bible has to say about it. Don't snidely choose snippets and take them out of context to your satisfaction. The only comments answered and kept will be those that are truly searching for the truth, posing questions or those trying to learn something of value.
This area is NOT a means of Christian bashing, political gain, hate mongering, etc. It is a place of learning and growing in the word of God. People like Ruby need not come here, it is a place for Christians or people wanting to become or learn more about Christians, NOT for those who hate Christians to decide to come and ridicule.
As for your comment Ruby: "Truth be told, the fact that Bradish agrees with you does not bode well for you either." That was rude, out of line and an all around disgusting comment. Bradish has a right to her comments, likes and dislikes, etc. just like you. Would it be fair if I went to everyone you 'liked' and posted nice comments for and made a self righteous, egotistical, hate filled remark like that? No, I don't think so. I would never do that to someone as I respect everyone and their own right to choose their path.
As for "why do you insist on pushing your religious views onto the rest of us?" To push my views on the rest of you, I would need to go to your blog and talk about my beliefs.... you came here. You have the choice to read and learn or not... no one is forcing you or pushing you. Everyone has the right to accept or deny Christ and His teachings, they have the right to accept or deny God's laws- This blog is simply stating what those teachings and laws are since they seem to have gotten distorted in our society.
Thank you for your comments. I hope I have been more clear. Have a blessed Easter.
Comment by Justicia
A Word From The Wise
Celebwise
In my mind, abortion is killing another human being. Even in case of a rape, that child still deserves a chance to live. It's an innocent life and taking it as a means of erasing the crime committed simply involves committing a further crime. It's murder.
I think Ruby somehow missed your stated purpose of the blog. You stated clearly your intentions so if she missed them, there's nothing you can do about that. It was clear that the blog is directed to teaching Christian values, no one is being forced to read nor are they not free to move to another blog if they don't like what they read here.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
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I may simply say, "well I don't like this and move on", but that doesn't mean that other, more susceptible people will be able to do the same. Certainly, you have a right to express your opinion and I have a right to comment on that. If you dislike my comments you can delete them.
However, the fact remains that Christians do attempt to enforce their beliefs on others, which the never ending push for the criminalisation of abortion can testify to.
The pro-life movement is a direct threat to the rights of women. When this movement accepts that, though they personally may not like abortion, they have no right to tell others what to do with their bodies, then I will treat the issue as a matter of personal faith and not comment.
I will apologise for my comment about Bradish, I should not have brought my anger about her comments on other sites to your blog. On that issue, I admit my mistake.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
I think that anyone looking to erase the memory of a rape by comitting a greater crime is foolish. The memory will always be there, if one wishes to 'rid' themselves of the 'reminder' there are many people waiting to adopt.
Here's a question to ponder: Should rapists (one time, or repeat offenders) be sentenced to death for their crime? -or- Should every child of a murderer be lined up and executed? The answer should be "no" to both so why is it that abortion is acceptable. Life is life. This is what the bible teaches. We are all children of God in the womb and throughout our physical lives... there is no distinction.
As for your niece Ruby, maybe this is her choice to read and learn as it is yours and everyone elses. If she were to read this and decide not to have an abortion would you not be proud of her action in taking responsibilty for her child? I would. I do not think it is a bad thing to teach the principals of Christianity even if you do. Personally, I would hope that this would be a life changing tool and by the grace of God it will be. If I help someone save one life by teaching the word of God I will be happy because I know that I am doing my job.
Remember, it is her choice to read as it is everyone's choice and if she chooses to follow Christian principals you should respect that just as you expect others to respect your choices.
You have stated your beliefs. You have come here and 'pushed' your beliefs on this arena. I am a Christian and I did not go to your blog and 'push' mine. So your statement: " However, the fact remains that Christians do attempt to enforce their beliefs on others, which the never ending push for the criminalisation of abortion can testify to." --holds no water, as you are the one that is guilty of the very thing you are accusing me of doing.
Again: "The pro-life movement is a direct threat to the rights of women. When this movement accepts that, though they personally may not like abortion, they have no right to tell others what to do with their bodies" this is your opinion and you are entitled to it. You are not yet ready to accept or understand this message or the message in the bible on this matter.
Just for the record when a woman has an abortion she is not killing or aborting herself- so where is it a personal choice because it is her body? That theory is wrong. To stop a heart beat with a violent act is murder. If a woman was aborting herself you might have a point, not that suicide is acceptable or that it is not murder as well, but at least it would be more accurate than to say that "a woman has the right to an abortion because it is her body"--- Do you see the problem with that statement? It is not her body but that of an innocent baby.
Thank you for admitting you were wrong about the comment made earlier about SL Bradish, that was polite of you to correct it.
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
and then in blind passion say something like,
You do of course realize that offends people and goes against your 'goal'.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
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I love how you bring the Quran into it, your view of it is as warped as that of extremist interpretations. It's cute, keep at it, because all you do is isolate the real muslims while giving the extremists more ammo to hate you. In your effort to feel good about yourself you not only create an enemy for yourself but also alienate any allies you might have had.
Anywho, I don't go around saying 'don't be offended by my views, oh, my views are that you're the presonification of evil and you will burn forever in hell... but you know, don't be offended'.
The sheer hypocrisy is self evident within the article itself and defending it is simply defending your own views, not the neutrality of the article. Trying to turn this against the Quran is no more than a desperate attempt to try and mask your contempt for people who have different faiths.
Comment by Don Lee
Comment by Ahmed
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I did not one attack anyone, I simply highlighted the hypocrisy of what TB said, on the one hand he/she said that he/she wasn't trying to offend anyone on the other hand she's taking a stance of 'if you don't agree with me then you're wicked and evil'.
The irony is I don't necessarily disagree with her on the topic at hand, I was simply stating the obvious, he/she is contradicting herself and is actually offending people with her views and pushing an agenda by drawing a line of 'you're either evil and disagree with me or you're an angel and agree with me'.
In any case even if I did disagree with him/her it wouldn't be enough to threaten my personal beliefs, I've survived religious persecution and you people sit here thinking I'd be scared of someones opinions. It's pretty funny when I think about it. Your views on religion are very weak, I'd hazzard to say none of you have actually earned your beliefs but simply born into them or inconsequentially found them at your own convenience.
Comment by Don Lee
Comment by Morgan Bell
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also if we lived in a society where adoptive/foster/step children were not regularly abused in group homes, church programs, and non-biological parents it may be more appealing to a young woman to go through with an unwanted pregnancy.
unfortunately "illegitimate", "bastard" and "orphan" children are more susceptible to torments and abuses in this world. a woman choosing abortion when she knows her child would have a terrible life is not (in my eyes) selfish, she is acting responsibly.
some people are not capable of raising children well, whether it be due to financial reasons, disbilities, mental health, or other personal reasons, and i dont think theres any real confidence that a child thrown into "the system" would have any real quality of life.
i also think that if the christian faith was serious about reducing the amount of abortions it would be wise to embrace technology that wasnt available when the bible was written and endorse contraceptives and sex education.
as a society we dont really need more hiv babies, heroin withdrawal babies, and homeless babies, suffering terrible lives, including sexual, physical and emotional abuse - women should be able to choose when and where they have children and women should be trusted to make decisions concerning their bodies and whether they reproduce, not men writing religious books, im sure the bible was written in a time when women didnt contribute much to content of publications
an abortion is the removal of an embryo from a womans womb, if the embryo cannot survive without its host that is not more a "murder" than taking a house and food away from a child (which "the system" allows all the time with starvation and homelessness all over the globe) and IS NOT the same as putting a bullet in the head of a newborn or a one year old, or a 10 year old or and 18 year old.
a first trimester abortion is not murder by any stretch of the imagination, yes killing a fully formed human child who lives and breathes on it own is a crime, but no removing an embryo should not be considered a crime.
in cases of rape, incest, child pregnancy, diseased or disabled pregnancy, pregnancys which are medically dangerous to the mother, and pregnancys in extreme poverty im sure there must be shades of grey in the philosophy of christians.
i personally think women should have options and i agree with Ruby when she said:
i do however respect your right to express your ideas and beliefs in this blog post and i thank you for allowing me to express my own opinions in your comments.
personally i am pro-choice and an atheist but it concerns me that young christian women may do themselves harm over guilt they feel over unplanned pregnancy.
it is interesting to see the bible references, i guess it just depends how literally you choose to interpret the passages, how orthodox, traditional or conservative your religious conviction is, and whether you can adapt the sentiment of the original words and put them in context of modern society.
there is a really interesting website called Life & Liberty for women that analyses passages of the bible relating to abortion God, the Bible and Abortion which i would encourage you to read and would also be very interested to hear your own opinions on the passages they cite.
Exodus 21:22-25 doesnt state "abortion" it states "premature birth" and associated injuries to the mother or child caused by men fighting and accidently striking a woman.
These are ancient rules about property law and compensation at a time when a mans wife and children were his property.
Another interesting fact sheet i found is "Biblical Perspectives on Abortion" by Pastor Jack Hughes, Pastor/Teacher at Calvary Bible Church in Burbank, CA.
it is an issue which is much debated and there is plenty of information and different interpretations of the bible.
once again, much respect to you and your beliefs and thanks for the post, i found researching the issue very interesting and i hope it prompts others to do their own research and further educate themselves.
Morgan
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
And when it came to religion, I thought Buddhists were meant to be the most tolerant of the bunch. Thanks Don Lee, you have just given me evidence to use when I criticise all religion and people say to me "well what about Buddhists? Aren't they the nice, peaceful understanding ones?"
And Ahmed, thank you for clearly stating why I found the post so offensive. In hindsight I wished I had waited until I calmed down a little before I commented...but you summed it up beautifully.
Comment by Ann 1
Bloganymity
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
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Wh osaid it bothered me? I was merely highlighting the obvious hypocrisy. If you say you don't want to offend people but rather tell them your opinions you won't go out of your way to offend them by calling them 'wicked' because they disagree with you
Comment by the world of gaye
batty
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REFLECTIONS
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Where is your compassion? I do not believe for a minute that it is a good or easy solution and I do think there are a lot of irresponsible girls (some of who I know) who use it as an easy way out, but there are also people who are in real trouble through no fault of their own or have circumstances beyond their control and are in desperate need of help and care. Walk in their shoes before condemning them. And by the way, could I be wrong or is there a lot of violence and attrocities being committed all around the world lately by so called religions (god must be horrified)
Comment by The wonderful Peter Yang
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Well, personally I don't think any country should create laws base on the idea of the dominate religion. I mean they can definitly be use as reference, but not to create law using it. Not unless we are call the "Christan commonwealth of Australia" or "The Christian republic of Australia" and honustly those names aren't really right for modern Australia.
Cheers
Comment by Nomad
Awesome Food
Man wrote the Bible and it is seriously out dated.
Have you ever heard of these ancient creatures called "Dinosaurs"? Have you heard of evolution?
Now Jesus was a good Man, but thats all he was, a Man.
fun fact No47- Jesus was an alcoholic.( its true he ran with a bad crowd in his teens)
Nomad (awesome dude)
Pro Choice
Comment by JoshZ
JZ
Comment by Lilla
From The Home Front
Enviro Warrior
Dream Herald
Esoteric Bookshop
Here we go again, don;t 'good' Christians ever get sick of bashing 'bad' Christians over the head with bibles .. and Easter isn't even over.
For starters what the hell has the Jewish faith and Laws from 120,000 years in the desert got to do with a Christ and what He taught? ... they strung Him up for God's sake... or did some of us miss that bit?
He taught Choice, Freedom, Independence of Dogma - the Dogma of the day... why else was everyone so bloomin' nervous about Him?
From what I can gather, Jesus was saying something like : Hey People, Don't buy the dogma of these fools who would rule you with fear ...stand firm in your belief ... why do you listen to them, not the Jewish, not the Roman, not the Arab ... FOLLOW YOUR HEART - do what's true to YOU, to God - but above all LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF!
Each with their 'own thinking' not some dogma that has been drummed into theirs, or your head...I mean for God's sake, you might as well buy the brain washing of the Al'Queada!!
EACH TO THEIR OWN and TO THEIR OWN MAKER, WHO IS MERCIFUL OF OUR SHORTCOMINGS..... I'll repeat that?
EACH TO THEIR OWN and TO THEIR OWN MAKER, WHO IS MERCIFUL OF OUR SHORTCOMINGS.....
(Oh for God's sake, I'm typing in Capitals again) *slapping forehead* what do I know, I am an eclectic eccentric.
Abortion may well be murder, but I think it is the individuals right to chose, just as anyone can chose to go out and become a serial killer or commit suicide. Not that either is right, and we all agree that we're talking extremes ... things which sit outside of our laws in grey areas of no-mans land, none of us sure what to do with the perpetrators (as we are not God) ... so we lock 'criminals' up for safe keeping - ours.
But this doesn't really deal with the issues of how nice the world would be if nobody stepped across this line, does it? It does start with though shalt not kill I s'pose, but Christians are amongst the worst killers of all species that I have known. However, to neatly wrap it up in a little page of biblical quotes like Friday nights fish and chips, whilst washing our hands clean like Herod, saying... '...off with him he/she/it is a criminal' .. is hardly the BIG answer we all need, is it? Just more fossil fuel for the fire.
We need new original thinking, outside the box here... spatial, unilateral stuff, not dogma.
Perhaps a change in the law that any young person under the age of 21 must (by law), seek out a pastor and talk to him about their decision to abort. It might save a few?
I should think prayers to enlighten souls to be able to live within their conscience a much better antidote than war, not that it will stop anyone from stepping over the line and we are back to square one...but what if one day, no one stepped over the line, because everyone had enough Christ Consciousness and the entire community took that pregnant woman in and cared for her so she wouldn't feel desperate enough to have to abort becuase her good christian parents couldn't accept that she was pregnant in the first place ...
What if no one had to rape women, men or children because they had Christ Consciousness and could control their sickness and everyone 'knew' that vengeance was God's domain, not anyone elses?
That day is coming ... I can dream too.
And BTW in my opinion, those who haven't been raped should just zip it, altogether on having the child or not.
So drop your stones people and have some compassion. There is some duality to life that should be observed first here I think, before you start chanting unity by execution.
Perhaps, the problem came in the opening line of your post TBT in which you stated its purpose was to 'teach' Christian values ... not try to understand them fully ...oops.
Lilla ...
Comment by Cathy
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Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
Let's see if I can write a response as long as all the others and convince people my opinion is more wothty than theirs. And educate them?
My goodness, people. What is your problem? Does it matter to you that much that someone doesn't agree with you? Have any of you lived in the real world, or do you spend all your time in the virtual world?
When you have a job, you don't convert your boss, you just do what he tells you to do. That's how you earn a wage.
Oh, you don't earn a wage? You just sit at your computer all day long tyring to get someone to agree with you? ...
What's the point? You can't educate morons.
Comment by Anonymous
Your text goes here
Comment by the world of gaye
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Comment by Undercover
So many people shouting ignorance, but these must be the most typical opinionated and uneducated responses I've ever read.
Its not 'your body' and you cant 'do what you want with it'
Its about time women (& men) started taking responsibility. If you want go around town sleeping with anyone you want, then you have to deal with the consequences (obviously rape is a different issue.) People need to stop being so selfish and think outside of their own problems.
Great post.
I like honest opinions and not politically correct do-gooder pollution like most posts.
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
It's clear you didn't read past the first three or four comments as the 'my body' argument was presented only once in one comment.
Comment by Damo
Before leaving my comments on this controversial post I did what everyone else should have done.
I read the original post, looked at what its message and its intended audience the I went back to look at the track record of the authors previous posts.
All pretty tame stuff based around Bible study aimed at Bible students. In the few that I read I did not see any evidence of radicalism, bigotry or self righteous condemnation. In other words this post was following a consistent line of thinking that is less provocative than the average.
That being said I think that a lot people need to get a life and realize that the world does not change because some writes something that conflicts with what you believe. By next week no one will care what was said, let alone anyone who is in a position to change the laws.
Damo Has Spoken.
And he does have tickets on himself.
Comment by Luke
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AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
First to Ahmed, "I've been through a lot worse and have come out unscathed." It is good to see God has protected you in your life. -- By living a life following the teachings in the bible, it refers to those who do as 'righteous' and those who do not follow the principals it refers to them as 'wicked ways or wicked men'-- I didn't write it, God gave that job to certain men to write what He intended. My job is to share it with others who wish to learn about the Christian faith.
If you still feel like harping on that where I am concerned pick up a bible and read it for yourself. If after reading you feel like asking God why it was written I am sure He would love to hear from you in prayer... by all means please ask Him.
Don Lee, Cathy, Lady Henrietta, Josh, Undercover and Damo: Some of you may not agree with me as I look over some of your past works and read through these comments I get a feeling that a couple of you might disagree with these teachings in their entirety. But, you didn't jump in with hate filled atrocities or blind rages-- instead you made some nice comments and moved on. Damo, you couldn't be more right- this is a bible study, plain and simple. Those who do not have the intention of learning what the bible says shouldn't come to read it.
To everyone: My goal was not to provoke but I will not sit here and sugar coat what it says in the bible, or turn into a foul tempered monster driven by emotion and an egotistical nature. I am a peaceful servant of God. I make mistakes like everyone else as NO ONE is without sin. The only difference between real, devoted Christians and everyone else is that we can admit our sins and then we struggle to learn from them. We search the bible and any instance that makes reference to or talks about the issue, we read and then obey- no matter if it is convenient or not. That alone is what separates a honest mistake from an intentional sin and it is all based upon a willingness to learn right from wrong.
I have seen some rather useless comments that were nothing more than messages of hate on this blog post. Remembering for a moment that I did NOT come to anyone of you and demand that you read this little lesson, I did not post it on your blogs as comments or anything of the like. You all came here to read. I don't know where you were raised but is it customary to come into another person's house and attack them with mean words that have no purpose whatsoever other than to hurt someone else? Shameful, really.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and whether you like it or not, even us Christians are. If you don't agree with the bible, Christian morals or principals then please don't read and instead go somewhere you can enjoy being- somewhere without rules and consequences.
For anyone else that truly wishes to learn more about this faith please stay and we can explore the bible together. This has actually been a wonderful lesson for everyone I think especially those serious about learning to see the hate that Christians must face in life especially if they intend to teach as Christ did.
I invite everyone to read this passage as it directly applies to this issue and the lesson learned here:
Matthew 5:3-12
Comment by Anonymous
Now, i've had 4 pregnancies- the first was the abortion, then I had 2 babies and then a miscarriage. Having the m/c made me feel the pain of the abortion even deeper, now knowing what it was like to lose a wanted baby. And having my children also made me realize that I could have had that baby and made it work, it would have been loved.
I don't think I can accurately describe the emotions I've had through the last ten years in regards to this, and most wouldn't understand unless the'd been through it.
I wish that I hadhad God and Jesus in my life back then so that I wouldn't have made a decision that still haunts me today. Woman and girls have no idea what they are getting into when they agree to this "procedure". The mind feels the loss of the child and so does the body, and it just isn't how its supposed to be.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Ahmed
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...and we continue to demonstrate how we're not trying to offend anyone by using divisive arguments and trolling tactics.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
There are some women so cold and selfish they don't care what happens to their children. Abortion is a handy method of "birth control" for them.
Truth B. Told is absolutely right in saying that abortion is murder. The Bible says so, and TBT uses the Bible to teach. Try learning instead of raving and accusing TBT of trolling tactics. It was clearly said at the beginning of this post that there was no battle intended, just information about the Bible and what God says.
In case you haven't noticed, Ahmed, abortion is a very divisive issue. There is right and wrong, and they tend to divide people, or didn't you know?
Comment by Ahmed
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Let me make it more clear:
parading your opinions around like you are definitely right WILL cause problems, when you are trying to tactfully deliver your opinion you do NOT as a rule of thumb speak it in such an arrogant manner that you are right and everyone else who disagrees with you is wrong. You in fact take it a step further, not only are you unabashedly claiming to be right you're also comparing those who disagree with you as cold hearted killers.
Just remmeber the most tyrannical people in history have had a "firm grip on the difference between right and wrong", much like you, it all came down to their stubborness.
There may be a clear right or a clear wrong, just like there is decency and there is hypocrisy.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Saying that women who have abortions are worse than rapists is not bigotry to you? It is not radicalism? A consistent line of thinking that condemns all non-Christians as wicked is perfectly acceptable to you? Why is this?
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions- let's not name call or attack. This is a peaceful place for everyone to read and get involved without being taunted or verbally abused.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
And Damo was correct. He read the previous posts and was able to understand that this blog is concerning Christian principles and the Bible. Since you are clearly not interested in either one, but in forcing your own agenda on others, why do you object to anything anyone else has to say? TBT is teaching the Bible here, as applied to Christian principles, while you are trying to shove your love of abortion down the throats of others. Back off!
Comment by Damo
I don't know where you read the comments that your are quoting but they are not anywhere in the original text of this post.
If you want to start attacking straw men of your own invention then go ahead but it is very obvious.
Comment by Anonymous
As for me... I do agree and I am forwarding this post to everyone in my address book! I love it--- I am a struggling Christian and I have a LOT to learn but as 'truth' has said before ' when in doubt, throw it out.' meaning if there is even the slightest chance it could be against God to do something DON'T take the chance!!!! That covers a lot especially this topic!
Comment by Jenna
Comment by Jenna
Sorry, I too was mad when I wrote this... I should have taken a moment to breathe before I responded but trash talkers like that Ruby really tick me off. Sorry for the typo.
Comment by WOW!!!!!
On a personal note, I can not understand why anyone would be appalled or horrified at a pro-life person ... their sole goal is to allow life to live-- why is that a bad thing? Seems pretty decent to me.
I liked this blog a lot and I will be coming back to learn what else you have to say TruthB Told.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Comment by Undercover
Agree with everything you said.
This whole place is going to burn in fire because we are just so selfish.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
To condone evil practices aside from your own life is the same as actually doing it yourself. As Christians we are to teach others right from wrong in a loving but firm manner as it is clearly defined in the bible. To do so hurts no one but can save a soul. If we say that it is a personal choice then we are merely masking an abomination to God with selfishness
As for instances of rape; to rape is a crime and should be punished but if a woman kills a baby that is the result of the rape then she is showing less mercy to an innocent person than even the rapist showed her. At least he let her live.
Either we stand for righteousness or wickedness in all of our works… Where do you stand?
Comment by Undercover
Theres no worse, no less.
A liar has sin, a murderer has sin.
It is all the same in the eyes of the Lord.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
You call my niece, a young woman whom you have never met a 'slut' and then have the audacity to label me a 'trash talker?'
I am quite perplexed here I must say, I thought the purpose of blogs was to put forward and discuss ideas? I am not disputing TBT's or anyone else right to voice their opinions. I am not "forcing my love of abortion down anyone's throat". I am however, counteracting others opinions with my own.
Isn't that why blogs have a comment section? Isn't that the whole point of Orble?
If you disagree with my opinion, fine, tell me why. Tell me why I am wrong or out of line or why I should reconsider my position. Don't just insult me, swear at my niece who has nothing to do with this whatsoever, and assume that you have made your point.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Damo
I am not sure where you learned comprehension but no where does that passage say what you claim that it says.
Everything was prefaced with the qualification 'as Christians'. TBT is following through in logical steps to present a viewpoint based upon that qualification.
The fact that you disagree with her has no bearing because you are using your moral yard stick to condemn her moral yard stick.
In short you are using your personal ideology to condemn another persons ideology. You might as well just poke you tongue out as it would be no less chauvinistic.
I would encourage TBT to leave all the comments here as it exposes a lot about where people are coming from. Let the chips fall where they may.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
SL, I read that post and it was, to say the least, gut wrenching. Very powerful view point.
Ruby, I think you are fighting against a lot, perhaps in your own life or within your own views and choices... I will pray for you to resolve them.
Jenna, perhaps the term 'slut' was too harsh. I am aware that Ruby admitted that her young niece was sexually active which may qualify 'whoremongering' behavior- But, it doesn't mean that name calling is in order. You are entitled to your own opinions but use kindness and love when choosing your words.
Regardless of the words exchanged here against me or the Christian faith or even against our Lord and Savior- that never is grounds for name calling and lowering ourselves to immature and hateful actions of those against us. Don't allow emotions to run your life and your actions. We are a peaceful and loving people. Remember, be lights for those that are lost!
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
As Christians we are to teach others right from wrong in a loving but firm manner as it is clearly defined in the bible.
As Christians we are to teach others right from wrong in a loving but firm manner as it is clearly defined in the bible.
Nope, nothing offensive or aggressive about that comment at all.
And could I please ask that people stop insulting my niece and using her as a weapon against me? As loving, caring Christians you should not find that too difficult I am sure.
I am sorry I got involved in this whole sorry mess. I have learned my lesson, well and truly and will think twice, thrice, four times before I post any more comments on any further blogs.
Ah, I can hear the applause already...
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
No, I don't assume, I know everyone has a right to their opinions and they have a right to deliver their opinions in all manner of arrogance.
You happily go from talking about opinions and moving to actions, you're inability to discern between the two probably is why you don't believe people are entitled to opinions.
Tell me bradish, when was the last time someone disagreed with you not wrong?
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
Comment by Undercover
Comment by Damo
Ruby
No one on the planet can convince you that those words are harmless and benign.
You have already taken the position that all Christian text are part of a dangerous cult.
So I figure you will stew over them until a penny drops somewhere and you ask the writer for clarification.
However this does remind me of the controversy that existed over whether all Muslims are terrorists. Such people even had selected Koran quotes to back prove the case. I see similar parallels here.
Luke
Say what you want but you have very little knowledge about the subject of why others believe something.
The question is and always will be about human rights.
Is this human?
If so should what human rights should it have?
Your Christian conspiracy theory does not hold water.
My theory is you just made this crap up in the hope of stirring up more irrational tirades to entertain you.
Am I right or am I right.
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Luke, I am sorry but your choice of words are offensive. When I think of a baby being mutilated and hacked up inside of its mother 'envy' and 'desire' for sex are the furthest things from my mind. If you are not a Christian and do not think as a Christian perhaps you should refrain from guessing what we think or how our thought process works. That comment was pretty disgusting.
Damo, you raise good points. That is exactly what it is about! We believe that a baby has the right to live. A heart beat, brain waves, and constant develop proves that it is a human being that is alive and growing. To put an end to the heartbeat of another person for convenience is murder. To end another's life is a sin(Thou shalt not kill).
The bible states that God knew us in the womb. He acknowledges that we are living human beings from the time of conception.
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
See I don't happen to think that sex is something to be ashamed of. But then, as a non-Chirstian, I don't know right and from wrong. Luckily you are here to teach, so please go ahead. Save me from myself. It's your good Christian duty.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
So you don't believe in being "judgmental" with her and whatever she does is perfectly acceptable to you, right? Is that what you'll tell her when she comes to you and confesses that she has AIDS? Will you mourn with her for the life she might have had if she'd kept her pants on? Will you give any thought to the children she might have (generously) allowed to live if she hadn't caught a fatal disease from her promiscuity? Will you tell her it's O.K. to wither away and die from a hideous disease, because after all, she didn't have to obey those ridiculous and strident Christian rules? Well, you go right ahead, Ruby, and pretend that your own set of values is right and you can't ask your niece to do anything that isn't "free and fun" and deadly in the long run. At least try to be honest and admit that she means less to you than her usefulness in bashing Christians.
Just FYI, Ruby, there are strains of venerial disease that damage beyond repair and don't kill, too. Herpes is oodles of fun (as well as incurable). But hey, as long as she's having a good time and enjoying her sexuality, why waste her time in discussing those silly little details, right? After all, it is her body to destroy any way she chooses and you'll support her "choices" til the day she dies. Too bad you don't really love her. But, hey, as long as she makes your anti-religion points for you, I guess she fulfills your needs. Her's don't count, right?
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
I can understand if you are afraid to because they are rather graphic images - but, the question of whether or not it is a baby might better be answered not with words but with sight. This might help clear it up for you whether it is a baby or not.
Again Ruby, this is bible based teaching. You might be okay with premarital sex or even extra mariital affairs but I am trying to keep all of my words in exact accordance with biblical teaching. "whoremongering" behavior is the action of freely given sex without marriage. I did not make up the word off the top of my head nor was it meant as an insult. I was merely using a word used in the bible as a way of addressing the comment of 'slut'. I was showing that I understand the term and while it may have a certain validity in the sexual reference I wanted to re-state that I didn't want name calling or harsh/rude comments made that may or may not have been valid. I am sorry if the term offends you, I understand that you think this behavior is fine and again you have free will to think and feel any way that you choose. But, under no circumstances will I sugar coat or try to conform to political correctness... that is not what this blog is about. It IS about biblical lessons for Christians in today's world. You don't have to like it- no one is forcing you to live your life as a Christian or with any moral foundation whatsoever.
If we were to talk about 'offensive' behavior Ruby I am sure that you can see that you have made your mark on this platform as well. Despite what you may believe, this blog wasn't designed to hunt you down and attack your way of life.
Since you have shared that the principals of my faith are offensive to you let me share with you what I think is offensive:
You have come here as my guest and called this Christian moral "appalling" -- yet I allowed you to speak your mind without getting angry and insulting you. You have suggested that all Christians are hypocrites-- but again I didn't harass you about it, I let you voice your opinion but re-affirmed my position. Then you admitted to condemning all religions regardless what they teach: “Thanks Don Lee, you have just given me evidence to use when I criticise all religion..." But, then claim that my post preaches radicalism (which basically means intolerance and prejudice) which is by the way all you have shown toward me and my faith. Yet, I said nothing of your hypocrisy and allowed your voice to be heard.
This is offensive to me among other things that I will not go into as I think I have made my point. I am not here to put you on the spot - I am merely taking the time to open your eyes a little wider. I have swallowed my pride and accepted your aggressive, offensive words without protesting, complaining, making matters worse, purposefully inciting anger or stereo typing. It would've been nice if you could've done the same.
I am trying to provide a study here for people who want to live their life by the Christian faith instead of by their own selfishness or fleshly/worldly desires. It is not a violent way to live, it doesn't hurt other people, it promotes love, kindness, respect and takes courage as well as a lot of self discipline.
I can not force you to learn these principals no matter how often you accuse me of doing so.... but I can keep teaching them in hopes that someone else can find it a useful tool to better understand our faith.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
1. Being sexually active is not the same as being promiscuous. My niece was in a long term relationship. She is 18. I refuse to make any more comments about her or any other member of my family. You are being incredibly rude and obnoxious by dwelling on this. I only brought her up to illustrate the point that young people are susceptible to offensive information that is posted on the internet, even information that tells people not to be offended.
2. I do have a moral code. i just don't get it from the Bible.
3. I am happy to live and let live. You can worship Jesus or Jehovah or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't care. Just don't presume that you have a monopoly on what constitutes good and what constitutes bad. i don't ask you to live your life by my ideology. Grant me the same courtesy.
4. Stop making out Christianity to be a victim. It is anything but. It has taken the Western World the better part of 2000 years to wrench itself free of the tyrannical grasp of the Christian religion(s) and people such as yourself are hell bent on sending us back to the Dark Ages. Never.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
But let me say one thing. This is what offends me; you claim that this site is just for Christians and is only here to teach them the Bible. Then you say such things as it is your duty as Christians to inform others about the difference between right and wrong. What you are doing here is assuming that only the Bible knows what is right and wrong and that this somehow gives you the right to tell the whole world how to live their lives.
Your post is little more than a call to arms. The fact that you attempt to dress it up with nice words does not mask your aggressive intent. You are telling other Christians what to think and then informing them it is their duty to tell us what to think. Can you see how you are contradicting yourself? This is not just a theological discussion. You are attempting to undermine secular society by putting 'God's' laws above secular law.
Now i don't believe that God exists. Why should i be told that I therefore do not know right from wrong?
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Lilla
From The Home Front
Enviro Warrior
Dream Herald
Esoteric Bookshop
That might save a few, insult no one ... and help people to take the time to think about what they are really doing?
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
You act as if someone is keeping you, by force, on this blog and refusing to let you go. If you do not like what is written here you are free to leave at any time. I am not telling you how to live, I am trying to share with Christians or people yearning to learn more about our faith, what the BIBLE has to say on the subject they consider to be questionable ground.
These are not standards that I have pulled out of a hat, or made up this morning... these are directly from the BIBLE as this is a BIBLE STUDY BLOG.
As for: "Then you say such things as it is your duty as Christians to inform others about the difference between right and wrong." Now you are catching on. Christianity is not a spectator sport. Matthew 28:19-20 tells us to go and make disciples and to teach them to obey all that He has commanded. Here's a little secret, I work for God, I have dedicated my life to teaching others in hopes of leading people to the light of God's love in an effort to spare their souls from hell. This is what I believe. If you don't that's your choice.
You know Ruby, I can't see why you are still here saying the same things yet not paying any attention to what many people here have tried to tell you. Maybe you are waiting for me to tell you what you want to hear? Or maybe you want to learn more but are afraid of asking the questions? I don't know you, but God does.
Food for thought: Even if you don't believe in something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Comment by Lilla
From The Home Front
Enviro Warrior
Dream Herald
Esoteric Bookshop
AIDS is off topic, the question is about abortion.
You should do a post on AIDS yourself perhaps if you feel strongly about it.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Damo
But I do have life and no time to shout people down.
Just a couple of random observations.
It is a scary day when SLB and I are in agreement on anything. However I deal with issues and not people. So let the chips fall where they may.
Anyway there is just so much humor to leverage off if I was inclined to do so.
TBT is now the greatest threat to the Secular society. I did not know that blogs were so powerful.
Sorry let me rephrase that: TBT is the greatest imagined threat to an imaginary version of a secular society. This post should be rated R and kept away from the feeble minded in case they are seduced by it.
Sorry, I have to leave, I am laughing too much.
Too many other things that have just moved the mental bar below sea level to comment about.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
It is religion in general is a threat to secular society. Roe v Wade is in constant danger of being overturned due primarily to the Christian lobby. Gay couples still cannot get married due primarily to the Christian lobby.
You can ridicule me all you want and get all the pleasure out of it you want, it does not change the fact that religion still holds far too much way over us, even those of us who are not religious.
And TBT just proved my point when she said "Christianity is not a spectator sport". Now I can stop posting comments on here but it won't change the fact that nearly everywhere I go I am accosted by Christians of varying denominations who take pleasure in telling me I am sinner. They knock on my door, they stand and holler on the street corner, they have ads on the television, they put flyers in my letter box.
Now I can simply ignore it as I have so often done in the past or i can fight back. Since ignoring it does not make it go away I am choosing to fight back.
Damo, you can be just as narrow minded and self-righteous as anyone else on here when the mood suits you.
And TBT food for thought: just because you believe in something does not mean it exists.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Well, I would like to thank you Damo for coming by and serving as a voice of reason and comic relief all rolled into one! Please feel free to stop by anytime.
Thanks again to everyone for diving into this topic and getting involved!
Comment by S.L. Bradish
And, Damo, it was a strange (but pleasant) experience to agree with you for a change.
I'll pray that you aren't beyond hope, Ruby.
Comment by Justicia
A Word From The Wise
Celebwise
Your comments show an intolerance to Christianity and nothing TBT or anyone else says will change that. You are not a believer, that is your personal choice and I'm sure everyone respects that choice.
This blog, as has been stated many times, is about the Christian values present in the Bible. So if you don't like the Bible and its teachings or the Christian faith, then I really fail to see why you're bothering to even read this blog. Read something you are interested in, not something that seems to offend you so much.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
The fact that you see Christian people haunting you everywhere you go says to me that maybe you are harboring some guilt... and no that is not just the Christian in me speaking but also a psychological view. We are not out to get you, despite what you believe.
If you do not believe in God why are you so ashamed or distraught by the fact that people are suggesting that you might go to hell? If God, heaven and hell do not exist why then does it bother you so?
Please do not attack Damo. He has done nothing to you except for to disagree. People will disagree with you Ruby. The sooner you accept that the sooner you can move on.
SL, I will be joining that prayer. And you are more than welcome... please come back for my miracle series I intend to write based on real stories of miracles that I have witnessed.
Justicia my dear, what a skillfully worded comment. I hope that you have better luck laying that point on the table than I did. Well put, and thank you.
Have a wonderful evening everyone and God Bless!
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
i was raised a Muslim. When i was 17 I started studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses, a religion I was heavily involved in for three years. So I am familiar with both the Koran and the Bible.
You can call me many things but "ignorant" is not one of them.
I can see how my point of view is offensive to you, i really can. As I said before, you are free to believe what you wish. However, my objection is that this blog asks not to be criticised, yet is happy to criticise others. Just because it has a disclaimer in the first paragraph, makes it no less offensive. It is in the public domain, therefore, it is open to public criticism.
And if Christians can come knocking on my door, then why can't i do the same? If they can preach where and when the mood takes them, then why can't other people? Why this double standard?
As i woman when I see words that offend me deeply and cause me pain such as As for instances of rape; to rape is a crime and should be punished but if a woman kills a baby that is the result of the rape then she is showing less mercy to an innocent person than even the rapist showed her. At least he let her live.[QUOTE], then I am going to comment. To the best of my knowledge nowhere does the Bible say that.
And no, Justicia everyone does not respect my choice. this is evident in the fact that this blog states that it is a Christian's duty to "educate" the rest of us. It is evident in the fact that a member of my family has been called a slut and a whoremonger. It is evident in the fact that I am constantly been told that I have no morals and don't know right from wrong. That I am sure to get AIDS and die.
I'm sorry if my words offend you Justicia, but that is my point of view. If you disagree, that's your prerogative, i promise you, you won't go to hell for disagreeing with me.
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
In lala land apparently it does, I've seen worse. Bradish makes one of those 'oh I'm not out to offend anyone' then proceeds to compare someone with the devil.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
It's not really encouragement, I'm trying to deter her from wasting anymore time here =)
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Sorry, couldn't help it. When it comes to name-calling, you win, Ahmed. It's the last refuge of someone who knows they have lost the argument.
Comment by JoshZ
JZ
Comment by Evolution8
I saw your invite at Pro-Life Philippines' website so here I am, thank you!
I've read everything that was written here. Abortion is illegal in the Philippines and it 's very sad to see women especially in North America, suffering from the wrong choices they've made. What's really more cruel was the fact that an innocent baby wasn't given the chance to see the light outside it's mother's womb. Shall we blame society for this? Is it the high rate of promiscuity and wrong concepts of birth control? Where do we stop and put an end to this?
That being said, i'd like to invite you all to visit our website and join our online discussion [url=http://www.freenorthamerica.com/portal.php]here:[/url]
Congratulations TBT, great work here, keep it up!
God bless,
Evolution8
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
what happens to the souls of aborted babies? do they go to hell? if not, then what's the problem?
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Thank you for stopping by!
Ahmed, no name calling! This is a peaceful site for people to learn, any other comments like that and I will delete them. I know it must make you feel really cool to name call and ridicule but no more on this blog. There is freedom of speech and expression - you have made your point, you have no more business here unless you want to learn something.
Luke, they can't celebrate a 'birthday' without a 'birth'. And, a birth isn't the magical thing that makes that baby live. It is already alive, playing moving, thinking, hearing, etc. prior to birth. For the record, many people and societies do celebrate the conception and add that time onto the time of the person's life. Not that you actually care about anything here (even this) and I know you just want to mock me and everyone else who doesn't believe as you do : that no one should ever be held accountable for their actions or that life (other than their own of course) means nothing and if a person is hated, unwanted or considered an inconvenience to any one person they deserve to be put to death for the crime of existing.
OH and the smug comment about babies not going to hell... that clearly shows the kind of person you are through and through. I guess there's really no difference between a murder that goes into a kindergarten class or daycare and begins slaughtering all the babies and children right? After all those kids aren't going to go to hell so why should anyone care?
You have a twisted sense of thinking there kid. What a shame. Your comments here have offended many people and the sheer nastiness of your comments are only getting worse. From now on I have no choice but to delete them and anyone else who follows this parade of provocation.
You clearly are not here to learn anything, so please, until the day you actually want to change your life for the better and live for something other than yourself- go somewhere else. I refuse to turn this study into some play thing for your entertainment. We are not here to amuse you.
Comment by Damo
Dumb insults are no exchange for rational thought.
Now you answer some questions?
What is a human being?
What is not a human being?
Who makes that determination?
And why should they have that power?
Quote whatever 'secular' or non secular source you like.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I have looked up those Biblilcal sources you gave and interestingly, none of them actually condemn the practice of abortion.
In fact, the Bible does not even mention abortion. Not once. According to the Bible, God gave Moses 600 other laws in addition to the 10 commandments and not one of them outlawed abortion. I find this quite extraordinary considering that the practice was so widespread at the time.
Abortion is not a modern phenomenon TBT, women have been ridding their bodies of unwanted pregnancies for thousands of years. The reason abortion was outlawed in the 19th century was not because it was considered murder but because so many women were dying at the hands of careless abortionists. It was made legal again for the same reason.
Furthermore, all the passages of the Bible you listed which you claim support your position are from the Old Testament. Are you aware that the Jewish religion has never considered abortion a sin or crime? In fact, in Biblical times a baby was not even considered viable until one month after birth.
I am finding this so fascinating that I really must thank you for drawing my attention to it. I will actually be making these issues the focus of my own blog over the coming days.
I am afraid you have misunderstood your own holy book. Don't feel bad though. You are not the first and you certainly won't be the last.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Did you ever hear of a man named Hippocrates? He was born in 460, B.C. and was neither Christian nor Jewish. He is known as "The Father of Modern Medicine" and was the creator of the Hippocratic Oath which was administered to new doctors before they were allowed to practice medicine on any patients. This oath was taken very, very seriously until the "modern" medical establishment discovered that there was money to be made by committing both abortions and euthanasia. Their selection of greed over decency and morality caused the oath to stop being administered so they didn't have to feel guilty for the monstrous crimes they were committing. Here is that oath, original translation from Greek:
Original, translated from Greek.[1]
“ I swear by Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath.
To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.
I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.
To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death.
Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion.
But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.
I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.
In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.
All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.
If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot."
Can you begin to see that the killing of a pre-born child has been considered wrong by many cultures and religions throughout the centuries? Do you think there might be a reason for this, even beyond the obvious Judeo-Christian morality?
There have been other cultures (most recently the Communist Chinese government) who demanded the execution of baby girls immediately after birth. It was their earliest form of abortion and was being practiced until very recently. As a matter of fact, they dropped the forced killing of baby girls when they discovered that they had too many males and not enough females. This happened last year, Ruby! So you see, even people as dense as communists can figure out that killing a generation is a stupid idea.
The Biblical quotes that TBT was using were mainly to point out that God considers us human from conception and therefore the commandment "Thou shaly not kill" applies to the pre-born as well as those who are outside the womb.
Yes, there have been women (for lack of a better term) who have killed their unwanted babies as far back as history goes. Nowhere during those years were the abortionists held with a shred of respect. Most of the women who had unwanted pregnancies were whores, in case you didn't know, and thought that pregnancy would adversely effect their "commerce."
I deeply resent your referrence to Jews, as your display of bigotry is offensive to pretty much everyone. It isn't surprising, of course, since you have shown the same offensive bigotry to Christians as well.
I will still pray for you, Ruby, though it may be through gritted teeth.
Comment by Damo
It does not take long to pull rug out from your mighty thunder.
"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).
"The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. . . . Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
These are two New Testament Quotes that took me less than 20 second to find. And I am no Bible scholar.
The original premise of TBT's article still stands because direct quotes can be found.
Shall we continue?
I can play this game all day.
Comment by Lorna
Get a real bible and do some research on the subject THEN try and speak with authority on it. My goodness. Like an energizer bunny on crack I tell ya!!! Again, please don;t delete. I am mad but I choose humor to deal with things these days otherwise I would make a sailor blush.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
And Bradish, it was not the Chinese Govt which demanded the execution of baby girls. It was the baby girls own parents who were killing them because of the one child only rule. Females are considered so worthless that to comply with this rule firstborn girls were murdered. And yes, once a child is born, their killing is murder. An abortion is not considered murder. Even the Bible says so. As I said, I will be blogging on this myself and will go through all the relevant passages from the Bible.
You keep bringing up my previous comments when I have already apologised for any offence I may have caused. I have stated at least three times that I wish I had waited until I had calmed down before I spoke up. I am now conducting this dialogue in a calm manner and you are still hurling the insults. And, I notice that you have never once apologised for the obscene comments you have made. Now is there or is there not a quote in the Bible, from none other than the Messiah himself which goes along the lines of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone?"
One more thing Bradish, don't pray for me. I want no part of your God fantasy. Besides which, it is obvious you hate me and since 'God' is all-knowing and all-seeing 'he' will see right through your little charade anyway.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
You quoted Barnabas and Didache? Sorry, what New Testament are you referring to?
Comment by S.L. Bradish
I brought up Hippocrates because he was also opposed to abortion and not a Christian or a Jew. He was the "Father of Modern Medicine" and I actually thought you might believe what he said since nothing else seemed to penetrate your tirade and make you think.
Comment by Don Lee
White Line Philosophy
TBT, I have been reading your blog sinse you started and find the bible study very interesting. It's been a long time since I last read it and you have got me back into it again. Thanks.
Damo I like your voice of reason. I'll have to check your blog out.
SL, I've been reading and commenting on you for a long time. The wife is starting to get jealous.lmao
Seriously, I'm reading the Old Testament right now and it seems to me that every time it says something about sinning, sex and murder (like with Sodom and Gomorrah) it has to be talking about abortion. I haven't run across the word abortion yet, but maybe thats because killing unborn babies wasn't considered a different crime back then. It was murder and they called it that. The word abortion makes it sound like something more ligitimate than it is and not as wrong. It sort of lumps all sex crimes into one category like fornication and rape, but it doesn't make any difference about murder. Its always murder.
Ruby, I always liked that name, but you don't know what your talking about and your making a fool of yourself by arguing what you dont know with people smarter than you are. What part of shut the hell up don't you understand?
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
And those are just the comments you directed at me. And yes, I did insult you in my initial response to this post. And I immediately apologised. Come on Bradish, be a good Christian and return the gesture. Forgive me Bradish, for I know not what I do.
Comment by Damo
There are several version of the Bible around.
Sorry but are going demand a quote from each version.
That does not matter because there are so many different versions out there. Which one are you going to demand to be the official version for your argument: The English version;The Latin Version or the Aramaic Version, the Ancient Greek version, The KIng James Version or the Jerusalem Version?
You do read Ancient Greek, Latin and Aramaic don't you. I mean I want to be clear about that before we start getting into a deep theological discourse about the proper interpretation of words.
I am sorry if were forced to study an incomplete version of the Bible.
But the quotes are in at least one version that is used by mainstream religions and that makes them accurate.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
If you don't care what your niece does, at the risk of her life (AIDS can kill, or are you the only person on the planet who hasn't heard?) isn't showing love. Using your niece as the focus of your diatribe against Christianity and saying that you would support he having an abortion from promiscuous sex rather than have her become a Christian, was very offensive(to your niece). Failing to point out that someone who is endangering themselves and others is being stupid would be irresponsible and condoning dangerous behavior.
I have nothing to apoligize for, Ruby. If you were dangling your one year old niece from a window, would you expect me to watch and say nothing because it was "your choice" not to care whether she lives or dies? She may be older, but it's still the same thing.
Oh, welcome aboard, Don Lee! Nice to have you on Orble!
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Damo,
The quotes you provided are not in any version of the Bible. They are treatises and letters written after the fact, based on certain people's interpretations. They are not Biblical quotes. Nice try but no cigar. Find me something that is in the Bible whether it be the King James version, Good news version, the New World translation, any of the myriad versions of this holy book that is indisputable and I will immediately retract my statements. No version of the Bible mentions abortion, Damo, never has.
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
You're perfectly fine with having her called 'wicked' though
Comment by Justicia
A Word From The Wise
Celebwise
So while you have been exposed to the Bible, studying it as a JW carries with it the notion that the way the Bible is interpreted by JW's is not the way mainstream Christianity interprets it.
As for door-knocking, the only 'Christians' who have knocked on my door are the JW's, who in my mind take their beliefs to the extreme. Not all of course, but some.
And no I am not offended, nor would I be. As for your comments regarding your niece, why would it matter if this blog is available for her to see? If anything, seeing viewpoints other than her own is only a possible eye-opener for people in her age group.
Comment by Damo
If the quotes are unacceptable to you then i will tackle this from another angle.
If I have made a mistake on the dates I stand corrected. It is not my intention to deceive anyone. I shall swallow my pride and move on. Laziness always has a cost I guess.
However some you concede that they do come from early Christian Church then it does prove that it was forbidden in 70 AD. Meaning that it is within one generation of apostles. The message was not plucked out of thin air as it was reiterated 4 years later. This does pour cold water only any suggestion that abortion was not forbidden at until the 19th century for purely safety reasons.
Sure you could put forward the argument that because the word abortion does not appear in the Bible any where that it must be permitted.
That is a fine argument only if you take the most literal fundamentalist reading of the Bible as it is written in English. Which it was not. Only a limited number of Christian denominations do that most have basic rules for interpreting what is written with minimal logical Errors.
The problem you have in finding modern words in the Bible is obvious. Language is not always directly translatable into English. So we have word used in an interchangeable manner that would be obvious at the time but in current times is specific to one thing. The ancient Greeks had 4 word for Love and modern society uses one. Are you still me? Modern society has a separate word for a child before birth and a child? brephos In Hebrew the word is 'yeled' There is one good reason why language uses one word for two thing and that is because they see them as the same thing.
Now immediately you can see the problem when you take a fundamentalist gaze at the English version. You hit the problem of claiming that there is an absence of evidence where in fact the evidence is there but you cannot see it. It is a common logical fallacy to say that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
So words like pedophile are not the Bible either. Yet are we to make the illogical metal acrobatics and say that it was all okay back then? That would be as illogical as saying that stealing was okay until Moses read out the ten commandments. This is the biggest problem with the absence of evidence fallacy. It does prove evidence of absence or inclusion in itself.
Now we are left the problem of personal interpretation of what you read. Hence you will see the bleeding obvious that makes it easy to take a literal fundamentalist line. Next you have the obviously implied and finally you have the issues that can have several interpretations.
This brings us back to the beginning. Just because the text is not spelled out in plain english it does not mean that there is sufficient resources to make some conclusions.
According to what you read in the Bible:
Is it wrong to Kill (murder) another Human being?
Answer: Yes it is spelled out in back and white. Chapter and verse. 10 commandments etc.
Is it a child in the whom or not?
Evidence:
"Does a mother forget her baby or a woman the child with in her whom?
"As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy"
Answer: This can be taken as as clear evidence that it is being described as human.
Step from a biblical study viewpoint can we logically connect the dots?
Answer Yes we can.
I am not sure where you dug up the concept that there was nothing in the Bible to condemn abortion. I think that Planned Parenthood may have posted a puff piece about it some time ago. Yet they are hardly a disinterested source. And so we end up with an unscrupulous method of intentionally taking a literal fundamentalist interpretation to create a fraudulent test.
Sorry this was so long but I was writing it for others to read also.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I am still in the process of reading and deciphering the various sources I have collated on this issue, so I cannot really give you a complete response. People are wondering why I keep coming back here and posting comments, and what it comes down to is this- religion is a subject that both fascinates and repels me. When I was Christian (and yes, JW's are Christian despite what others say about them), I believed abortion was condemned in the Bible because of Thou Shalt Not Kill. So, like the good Christian child I was, I screamed and yelled and shouted the 'truth' in everyone's face.
When I became an atheist I no longer cared what the Bible said about anything, least of all abortion. It is only now, after this whole "debate", that I have gone back to the Bible to explore the issue. Damo, it is not just the absence of the word "abortion", it is the fact that the Bible does not even mention the practice. As I said earlier, it was quite common at the time amongst both Jewish and gentile women so the fact that the Bible does not mention it surely can only lead one to the conclusion that the writers of the Bible were not too concerned with what women did with their uterus (unless they were single women having sex, then, of course, they deserved a good stoning).
Now, as I said the quotes given by TBT and indeed the Ten Commandments themselves, are from the Old Testament. To the Jewish people at the time, fetus's were not considered people. Thus, Thou Shalt Not Kill, which is a law concerning people, did not apply to fetus's. Thus, the practice of abortion was not considered murder. In Genesis 38, Judah orders the execution of Tamar despite the fact she is three months pregnant. Now, had her fetus's been considered people and their lives worth saving, would it not stand to reason that her execution would be delayed until after she gave birth? (As it happened, she was spared, not because she was pregnant but because Judah learned that she was not actually a prostitute as he had thought).
Like I said, I am still making sense of all of this so this answer is not as clear as it could be.
The reason I did not accept your quotes was simply because they were not from the Bible. Yes, early Christians did begin to object to the practice, but that does not mean that their objections came directly from the pages of the Bible. When I said that abortion was not criminalised for religious reasons, I did not mean to imply that it was never considered objectionable by some, only that the motivation for its criminalisation was not religious.
Finally, there are many current denominations of Christianity who do not feel that abortion is a Biblical issue. These include Coptic Orthodox and the Episcopal Church. The fact that some Christian faiths can claim that abortion is outlawed by the Bible and others claim that it is not, once again proves how vague and open to interpretation the book actually is. The fact is, people like TBT approach the scriptures, not with a fresh slate but with an intent to find proof that support what they believe must be true. They believe abortion must be murder, therefore the Bible must be against it, therefore they cite evidence that simply does not exist.
I know I can't really blame them. I used to be one of them.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Good Morning everyone! Looks like you all had a busy night
First let me say to Don- Welcome Aboard!! Blogs are a wonderful thing and I will stop by yours. I didn't know how important they were until I found out that they alone make the world spin... sorry, just a joke. I only wanted to poke a little fun at the fact that certain people seem to think that blogs have great power to sneak into the heads unknowing/unwillingly victims just to brainwash. Okay, that said sorry again for the humor... back to the serious nature of the issue at hand.
Justicia, you are very correct in your words. Because JW's often only pick and choose what they want from the bible like a modern day salad bar and make up the rest, most Christians do not associate themselves with them or even consider them to be Christian. And, on the flip side to that JW's do not usually consider themselves Christian either. A member of my family is a JW and used to be a Christian. She didn't want to celebrate holidays any more and found a new religion to accommodate that. She never fails to mention that JW's are NOT Christian in any way and that her religion teaches not from Christian principals or from the Holy bible.
SL, I understand why you would quote those sources- good job at proving a powerful point.
Damo- wow, you are an educated individual ... I like that. Your point that the bible consistently calls the unborn either a child or a baby and NEVER refers to it an inhuman, a fetus, etc. proves without a doubt that the unborn are children. The fact that it repeatedly says "I knew you even before I put you in the womb" also makes reference to the fact that He places human beings within their mother. Excellent research! Very accurate.
To elaborate on the point that Damo has brought up, here are a few more: In the Hebrew translation the word yeled is used for both the born and unborn. In Greek the word brephos is also used for an unborn and born child. So, if the bible always considers an unborn child still a child then isn't killing a child wrong in the eyes of the Lord? The answer is yes. Murder is murder. Speaking about the baby in the womb leaping for joy when the pregnant Mary visited her pregnant cousin, "leaping for joy" -- do lifeless globs of tissue 'leap for joy'? No, they do not- lifeless means lifeless. And yes, the term BABY is used to describe the pregnancy. So, if the bible calls it a baby and a child... and also says that it is wrong to murder or kill another person is abortion then wrong? Yes, it is.
JoshZ- You once asked if this has helped anyone... yes, I think it is helping people all the time. Each and every day it is opening someone's eyes and bringing forth that question of whether it is right or wrong. Not to mention the fact that it is helping those right here by means of allowing us ALL to look into the Holy bible and read the words. Even those struggling to prove this point of view wrong are looking into the word of God to learn more about Christianity and it's principals. So, yes, I think it is helping.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I am not going to argue with you over what makes a Christian and what does not. You are attempting to over ride everything I say by claiming I was never a Christian. JW's DO consider themselves Christian. They DO take their cues from the Bible. They consider themselves the only true Christians, much like every other denomination.
You don't like me criticising your religion but are happy to bag the JW's. Right. See, it's this sort of behaviour that turned me away from religion in the first place!
And are you telling me that you don't 'pick and choose from the Bible like a salad bar'? If you followed everything in the Bible you will be stoning your children when they spoke back to you, you will be stoning unmarried women who had sex, you will be giving magic potions to married women who committed adultery to induce all future pregnancy to miscarry...oooh dear is that what is says in the Bible...induce miscarriages?...Isn't that like an ABORTION? YES!! Look it up- Numbers 5.
As for this:
"I knew you even before I put you in the womb" All it means is that God has foreknowledge. Does not mean he considered a fetus a fully fledged human. Which the Old Testament clearly does not.
Do not presume to know more about ancient Jewish Law than the Jews themselves, TBT. Any Rabbi or Jewish scholar will verify my statements here. I am not a liar. If you want to argue your case, point me in the direction of the New Testament. What does Jesus have to say on the matter?
Oh, yes, nothing.
And I just want to verify here that I was in no way mistreated by the JWs, )apart from the obvious of been sucked into their religion in the first place. But I guess that was my choice). In fact, I consider them one of the more benign Christian denominations. Even though they are annoying with their incessant blabbering, they are happy to exist outside the law and do not lobby for a change in the law just to suit their religious agenda.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Where does it say a parent must stone their child for talking back. Please quote me a scripture.
I am failing to find in Numbers 5 what you claim. Perhaps it is because you are using the JW bible which is not exactly the same thing. Please quote the passage so I can look it up and write what the bible actually says on the subject please. Thank you.
So, Ruby, are you saying that Jesus never said to "keep His Father's comandments?" "Do unto others" etc? Doing unto others by the way... meaning man, woman and child.... and the fact that it states over and over (yes, even in the New Testament) about the terms "baby" and "child" refering to both the born and unborn.... these don't count right? Why?
It is clear that no matter in how many ways I provide you with what you ask, you will still not care what I have presented. NO matter how many ways it is said to you, you still will fight the facts as they are. So why bother with this tyrade?
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
I just thought was relevant to share here as you are not going by the Christian bible to find your answers and until you do I'm afraid we will never be on the same page for this argument. Please remember, this is a Christian bible study.
Comment by Jenna
Both, the "Book of Mormon" and the JW bible have taken some of the Holy Bible scripture and basically reworded and elaborated on it in the way that the founders of that religion thought best ... some things are just way out there and don't even have the slightest Christian feel around it.
Never the less, you need to stick with the right scripture if you are going to challenge this one Ruby. I must say that this is the most in depth blog discussion that I have ever read.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Second of all the only real difference between the two is that the New World Translation replaces the word "God" with the pro noun "Jehovah". All other differences are completely minor. It is simply a slightly different variation on the same text.
By continuing to ignore what I say you are simply showing your own ignorance of both the JWs and the Bible.
Just go grab your own version of your Bible, look up Numbers 5 and tell me, or at least admit to yourself what is written on those pages. Then look up:
2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children.
An on and on and on it goes.
That is the Old Testament.
Maybe its best we left it here? It's not my intention to ridicule your religion, merely to point out that the trying to condemn abortion by using the Old Testament is a mistake, since no-where in the Old testament do we get a slight inkling that 'God' thinks that all human life, let alone embryonic life, is equally valuable.
Comment by Damo
Thanks but I am by no means a Biblical Scholar. It is not even my area of primary interest.
I have less interest in petty He said / She said arguments.
Even less over who has the correct interpretation of the Bible.
Clear Thinking is my interest.
I only stepped in because the comments about your right to post this were particularly nasty and often extreme bigoted for the sake of being so.
(I don't like bigotry either)
Yet I am starting to laugh when self professed atheists are reduced down to reading bibles so that they can join a bible class.
Funnier still when they want demand that you interpret the Bible their way or no at all.
So really now the argument is down to whose personal interpretation of the Bible is better?
Sorry but the best anyone can contribute to that kind of argument is prefaced with 'In my opinion.'
Thanks TBT. I think I'll leave the rest to you and I will go back to what ever it is that I do.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
26 And the priest shall take a handful of the meal-offering, as the memorial-part thereof, and make it smoke upon the altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water.
27 And when he hath made her drink the water, then it shall come to pass, if she be defiled, and have acted unfaithfully against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away; and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
ע28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be cleared, and shall conceive seed.
וְ29 This is the law of jealousy, when a wife, being under her husband, goeth aside, and is defiled;
30 or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon a man, and he be jealous over his wife; then shall he set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
EXODUS 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
DEUTERONOMY 21:18, 21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother...all the men of the city shall stone him with stones, that he die....
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Nice cop out Damo.
You are the one that suggested we follow the line of argument and actually discuss the Bible.
Now you slamming me for doing exactly that.
So as an atheist I can't criticise religion nor can I participate in a discussion on the Bible. That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
Comment by JoshZ
my own interpretation of the don't do abortion thing is fairly simple and much like Damo's. The Bible says no pre-meditated murder. Is the child alive? Yes? Then killing it is murder.
That being said I am not going to push an opinion on anyone. I believe that we have the freedom and therefore the responsibility of our own opinions. If you have the facility to choose it, you also have the necessity to take the responsibility of that choice. That is what freedom is.
As far as interpretation of the Bible goes, everyone does it differently. Everyone DOES have an agenda and most people think they are right (I speculate that at times I may be right, but even then, I am ready to learn). As far as denominational differences go, I don't call myself a pentecostal. I simply call myself a christian. I don't think that the catholics have it perfectly right but I also KNOW that my church doesn't have it perfect either.
I'd also like to ask everyone to have a read of the post I just wrote. This isn't a cheap way of getting hits (but damn that would be a good idea) but simply I wish to open up for some civilised dialogue between the camps.
Blessed are the cheesmakers (or anyone in the dairy industry).
JZ
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
"Hazael Murders Ben-Hadad"
2 Kings 8:12 "Why is my Lord weeping?" asked Hazael. "Because I know the harm you will do to the Israelites," He answered. "you will set fire to their fortified places, kill their young men with the sword, dash their children to the ground and rip open their pregnant women." (***Just in case anyone was paying attention, this means that the Lord was against this act as He was *weeping* because of the impending horrible actions against the children and pregnant women)
2 Kings 15:16 "At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vacinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women." (* In 2 Kings 15:17 it goes onto say this is evil in the eyes of the Lord)
Isaiah 13 discusses the fierce wrath that the Lord will come with because of the sins. The reference you are using is a 'sin' that will be punnished upon Jesus's return. This is the 'Prophecy against Babylon'. So, the only point here that you have proven is that Jesus and His Father, God almighty, see these actions as sins that will suffer justice. The intro to this section clearly states (Isaiah 13:1) "An oracle concerning Babylon that son of Isaiah saw:" And then it follows with that God's fierce wrath is coming and He will destroy this land for their wickedness.
Ezekiel 9:4 ("Idolaters Killed") "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the destable things that are done in it." It further states not to touch or harm those that are marked and are sorry for the actions or those ready and trying to do good, but all those that are continuing to do wicked should be slain for their filth and sin. Ezekiel 9:6 is basically a small snippet of the wicked that should be punnished for evil deeds.
And I will address the rest momentarily. Then, I will write what chapters and verses that do make the claim that all life is valued as equal after I am through addressing each point you have brought up here.
Comment by Damo
If there is any thing that is offensive in what I have written then I fully and unreservedly apologize.
I am leaving because the post is now on the track it should be on: Discussing biblical passages and their meaning.
I know when I am out of my depth and so I will leave this to people who have an interest in this subject.
It is well beyond my skill level to go further.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Here are the main points of this that I think maybe you are refering:
- the woman shall be 'cursed' among her people means to bear title of whore for her promiscuity.
- Her stomach will swell, no where does it say she will miscarry so we can only deduce that she will no longer be fertile... meaning no pregnancy.
- If she is clean and has not done wrong she can conceive, again suggest that the alternative is being 'infertile'
- Execute upon her this law, the only law is this test... Maybe you misread the quote and believe that it says the priest has to execute her? But, if you re-read it you can plainly see that the test is what shall be executed in the event of jealousy or suspicion of adultry.
Exodus 21:17 This section entitled "Personal Injury" Each and every section has to do with physical violence. It is not out of line to understand the term "curse" to mean violence and pain caused by unruly children. Also, adult children such as those who beat their parents when they are elderly are still the 'children' of those parents. Obviously when read in the entire text this would most likely mean something more along those lines then you are making it sound. No other verse made any reference to killing a person for mere words. and "curse" has many meanings.
DEUTERONOMY 21:18, 21 I see that you used (...) twice in there to side step the conditions of the person to be stoned. The son must not obey, be reckless and a drunkard. And then the last part of that section states that "when all of Israel hears of this they shall be afraid." This shows that it was used as a disciplinary scare tactic to deter this type of behavior as it is wicked.
NO where does not say that it was actually performed any where in the bible to the best of my knowledge. Same thing with the 'adultry/jealousy' test from earlier. In an in-depth student bible based upon the Holy Bible, I have in my posession for those preparing for a life of pastoral duties, it says that no where was it ever actually performed within the bible.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I think that the OT did not have a view on abortion one way or the other. Yes, I think it is quite clear that the unborn were not considered people. Babies under the age of one month were never included in a census, nor were they allowed to be mourned.
As to Numbers 5, the line "her bell shall swell and her thigh shall rot" is a reference to a miscarriage. The Holy Water that she is being forced to drink (which is like a magic potion as it contains dust from the tabernacle floor), is designed to abort the fetus of the adulterous woman! Hence, if she is innocent (ie not pregnant), then she will be ok, if she is guilty (pregnant), then she will miscarry.
We have to keep in mind how long ago these passages were written, to try and decipher them in our current society is to take them out of context. The OT Bible was written by the ancient Jews for the ancient Jews. It makes no sense to adhere to its principles today.
That's my opinion TBT. I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot. Despite my earlier proclamations, even though I do not agree with you, I do respect your right to have your own beliefs. I can only ask that you respect my rights in return.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
- Babies were not allowed to be mourned? Please provide quotes for that.
- It is quite clear to you (provide quotes to support this claim) that unborn babies were NOT considered people.
- As to the reference to the Numbers passage, where does it say miscarriage or how did you deduce it 'meant' miscarriage. The reason I ask is that the bible mentions miscarriage throughout the bible (as a matter of fact, whenever it is meant or referenced they use the actual term) and if it 'meant' miscarriage it would be a rational deduction that it would have been said as such. I, as well as many others, take that passage to mean something different so I am just curious as to how you came up with that meaning and what supports your claim.
- The magic potion thing again... hhhmmm, still don't know where this is stated as it does not specify this in scripture as such. So, dust makes an abortion? We could argue this all day but as I said before, the fact that this was never written as actually happening has a huge bearing on this situation. It was a way to scare women (as law) and let them know just how big of a sin adultry is and that this 'test' would bring forth an emotionally driven response of guilt so it would lay to rest whether or not there was cause for the jealousy and indeed an immoral act.
*Kind of like (just for an example) in our society there is the death penalty for murderers... but not all murderers get the death penalty right? But the fact that it is in place and people know it as 'law' -many murderers are prevented from happening because it scares the person into thinking that they too will suffer death. Of course there are those that feel the need to murder anyway and so they invite the punnishment they have chosen knowing full well what will happen as a result. This is kind of like that...
As I have said, I do respect what you choose to believe. I am merely here to teach Christian biblical principals. Now that the anger is out of the way perhaps we can actually get down to what makes an abortion wrong... (or right in your case) as it is beneficial for people to read and make up their own minds as to who makes more sense. Are you ready to defend your stance? And thank you for your politeness, I appreciate it
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Referrences to the pre-born as children and living people were multiple, as TBT has already said. There was no mention of intentionally causing the death of a child for any reason (other than Abraham almost sacrificing his own son. And that was stopped by God when He knew that Abraham would obey His will in everything.)
Your attempted use of the Bible to support abortion isn't working, Ruby. Haven't you figured it out yet?
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Even though this is a blog about Christian principals I do think it is relevant to state both the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is very important to note that pregnant women are often refered to as "with child" Not with "thing" "glob of tissue" "non-human" etc. but "with child". This is something said throughout and in abundance in the bible which does identify it as a 'child'.
Exodus 21:22-25 (Penalty for killing an unborn baby) refers to a 'life' for a 'life' -- This is the OT so it puts the falshood that the OT didn't care about nor mention the unborn as children and in fact were considered "people" in the womb.
"Suffer little children not, forbid them not..." Matt 19:14 (reference that children are important to Him and to forbid one so small is not right)
Jesus has said that all of mankind is your neighbor and what closer neighbor than the child that you carry? "Love your neighbor as yourself." Would you commit suicide because you feel as though you have inconvenienced the world by your mere presence? No. then why destroy the gift of life that God had given to you?
Here is yet another point made. If a person is truly a Christian then they believe that they live for God not themselves. And furthermore, we believe that God is in control of all things. If God has given us a life to care for it was on purpose and what is an abortion if not telling God that you refuse His gift to you ? Or that you care more about your sexual immorality or selfishness/vanity then you care about Him and what He wants for your life?
1 Corinthians 6:12-13 – “You may say ‘I am allowed to do anything.’ But I reply, ‘Not everything is good for you.’ And even though ‘I am allowed to do anything,” I must not become a slave to anything…But our bodies were not made for sexual immorality. They were made for the Lord, and the Lord cares about our bodies.”
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 – “Don’t you realize that all of you together are the Temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in You. God will bring ruin to anyone who ruins this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you Christians are that temple.”
Also throughout the bible it talks about people being known by God from the time of conception Psalms, Jeramiah, etc.
Okay I am turning in for the night... but this surely is something to think about.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Numbers 5 has often been translated in this way (from the New International Version). Even the King James Version i originally has the following in the footnotes:
17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.
18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you.
20 Bu tif you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband'"-
21 here is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes you to ' have a miscarrying womb and barrenness.
22 May this water cause you to be barren and have a miscarrying womb "
" 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."
23 " 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water.
24 He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering.
25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar.
26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water.
27 If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; she will have barrenness and a miscarrying womb, and she will become accursed among her people.
28 If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
Now, this is nothing like the modern death penalty since before the death penalty is imposed the accused is given a trial to determine guilt. This woman is simply suspected of infidelity and punished, whether guilty or not.
Ex 21-25:If men strive [fight], and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay [a fine] as the judges determine.23
And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Only in very recent times has this being claimed to refer to the expelled fetus. The Jewish religion still maintains that the 'life for a life' referred to is regarding the woman. That is how the passage has been interpreted for thousands of years. It is only the modern day pro-life movement that views it differently. Furthermore, how can a newborn lose a tooth? Basically, this means that if the woman miscarries but SHE has no other serious injury, then the man gets a fine. If she suffers great injury or death, then the man in question suffers the same. It is not the fetus that is being discussed here but the woman. Hard to believe, but apparently the OT does value females from time to time.
Other quotes to consider:
Geneisi; 38 24
24 About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant."
Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to death!"
But what about her fetus? Wouldn't that burned along with her?
Numbers 3:15
"Count the Levites by their families and clans. Count every male a month old or more."
Kids under one month don't count.
Ecclesiastes 6:3-5
If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'"
I think Solomon is saying that some fetus's are better off never been born!
Okay, that's it for me. It's been years since I have delved this far into the Bible. I think I've had enough now.
Good luck with your continued Bible study. I hope you see it clearly one day.
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
Dumb insults are no exchange for rational thought.
Now you answer some questions?
What is a human being?
What is not a human being?
Who makes that determination?
And why should they have that power?
Quote whatever 'secular' or non secular source you like.[/QUOTE]
I don't know why I should be considered an authority on such matters any more than any of the other bloggers here, and some people would probably do well to remember this - you're just chumps who happen to have access to computers, the internet and the fandangled wizardly that is orble, not one of these things amounts to any kind of qualification when it comes to giving out opinions.
to the blogger who made reference to my mocking... look, here it is, the fact of the matter is that this is a personal issue. The pro-life movement is characterised by the fact that it brings into play the concept of innocent lives being at stake. The pro-choice movement is characterised by focusing on the inidvidual who makes the decisions. There will never be a consensus, and to argue is pointless because pro-choicers believe that it's THEIR choice, and pro-lifers believe that there is NO choice - even the usual equaliser of most arguments, IE. Minding your own business, doesn't work in this situation because most Christians and other religious fundamentalists are incapable of doing just that. And that's why topics like these, spearheaded by Christians claiming that they don't want to be controversial and that it's just a topic up for discussions, are worthy of little more than my scorn.
but hey, that's just my opinion.
Comment by Damo
So you don't actually know.
And you have no rational basis for your position.
So knowing that you are starting from a position of ignorance about such matters you still went ahead and aired your deepest bigotries.
Now what did you say your justification was?
Christians make you 'feel' bad so they don't deserve the same right to express an opinion as you do. But of course vilification is not vilification if it is someone you hate.
No need to answer.
But Hey, That is just my opinion.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Okay now to
"Ex 21-25:If men strive [fight], and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay [a fine] as the judges determine.23
And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. "
Notice the sets of bold words.
You said that "I think that the OT did not have a view on abortion one way or the other. Yes, I think it is quite clear that the unborn were not considered people."
But the term a "woman with child" puts an end to that theory. The term alone stands to correct you. Think about it. And yes, through out the bible this term is repeated to describe pregnancy.
"If men who are fighting hits a woman with child and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined..." This suggests that "no serious injury" applies to both the woman and the baby-- just because she gives birth prematurely doesn't mean that the baby will definitely die as all cases would be different. So, in this particular passage, to incite a birth or if a baby survived a premature delivery and lived there is obviously no serious injury. "But, if there is serious injury then you are to take a life for a life." This quote was taken from the in depth study bible and my other Holy Bibles concur with this statement. Meaning that if a mother delivers a dead baby then that is definitely serious injury and the penalty is a life for a life.
There is nothing to suggest even remotely that the law in no way has any bearing whatsoever on the 'child'. One lifeless body is the same as another.
Considering that the bible says that all of mankind has souls and God makes each one of us in the womb also indicates life begins at conception... does it not?
You must ask yourself, what makes a person a person? A heart beat? Blood flowing inside of a body? Brain activity, human growth? Or merely the vanity of a woman? Is a baby not 'alive' until it breathes air? So, if it is not alive then why does the heart beat? How can a baby hear from in the womb? Why does it play, suck it's thumb? Why then does a body grow if it is not alive? The opposite of life is death so if the baby is not alive... is it dead then?
Comment by Don Lee
White Line Philosophy
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Comment by Bible Scholar
Once you have given your life to Christ you no longer are of this world instead you are a new creation. Your life is lived based upon the key and most essential knowledge that all things happen for a purpose and what ever the Father (God) gives you should be cherished. "In all things give thanksgiving."
We are not to complain about our circumstances, our choices, or what happens as a result of our own doing. Instead we should remember what Christ went through and when the gift of life has been bestowed upon us we should embrace it and thank God for it. These things can be found throughout the New Testament in a variety of ways so not to e confused the message.
Just my two cents as this discussion feels as though despite the presentation of words, the message is getting lost among them all. Abortion is wrong if you are a Christian- and no I don't mean a Christian of convenience. If God id in control of all things then certainly human life is among those things and He gives according to what He deems is good for us to teach, and to show mercy, compassion and love.
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Still no pro-choice person has answered my questions as to what makes a baby a baby. I will wait patiently for someone to attempt to answer. (see below for a re-cap of questions)
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
That passage is there in the Bible to describe how to punish a woman if her husband is jealous. Does not matter if she actually committed adultery or not, the fact the husband is jealous is enough. And she is supposed to say "Amen. So be it"? And rememeber that God curses the water TBT! It is not the dust and water that cause the miscarriage- it is God's curse!
You are denying my interpretation even though I got it from a legitimate source (NIV).
You are also denying the original interpretations of the Bible by the Jewish people re ex 21-25. Your interpretation is a modern day one. As in only since the pro-life movement started getting involved in other womens' uters's has that passage being read that way.
Rabbi Balfour Brickner, National Director of the Commission on Interfaith Activities, says:
"Jewish law is quite clear in its statement that an embryo is not reckoned a viable living thing (in Hebrew, bar kayama) until thirty days after its birth. One is not allowed to observe the Laws of Mourning for an expelled fetus. As a matter of fact, these Laws are not applicable for a child who does not survive until his thirtieth day."
You are also denying the fact that the OT did not regard the unborn as people nor did it regard abortion as a crime.
In short you are pretty much denying reality. And that's fine, you do that. You view yourselves as "higher creations". If that's how you want to spend your short time on this earth, who am I tell you you are wrong?
But stop telling me abortion is murder. It is not. And there is nothing in YOUR Bible to substantiate your claim.
Comment by S.L.
The Political Brief
Have you even considered science in this un-Godly philosophy of yours? Look at pictures of babies from one month on up and you'll see that they look quite human. Or are your eyes defective, too?
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Mentally torture? Give me a break please... there you go attacking a made up (imagined) army again. So, each time a parent ever tells there child that they can see it in their eyes if they lie and their guilt will eat them up inside if they don't tell the truth- this too is mental torture? It is the same thing except maybe a stronger version for adults as they should know better than to break the law or comit such an awful sin. By the way, if a person is innocent of guilt they wouldn't care less about an impending punnishment for only the guilty.
Like I said we have reached a moot point with this particular view that will probably not be resolved as neither of us is willing to waiver on what we believe as far as that certain passage. And, I am not 'denying' your view, it is not what I believe and other Christians but you are not a Christian and are going to believe what you want regardless of how many times you are countered with scripture. I am not telling you what to think or believe, I am however stating what Christians believe.
And I will say it again.... slower perhaps... no one is forcing you to be here. I can sling hate filled responses at you just the same as you do to me- but I choose to exercise a Christian way of thinking and being by refraining from it... yes, that is how I choose to spend my time on earth. I intend to show mercy love an compassion to every living thing from the smallest living baby to the most wicked, vile and putrid person I come in contact with. I think that not destroying another life because of my selfishness and vanity is a very good way to live, I am sorry of you don't but again that is your choice.
The fact that every Christian who has read the bible understands is that if you believe in Jesus and His testimony and teachings on earth then you have to agree that God is in control of everything. When you are given a child be it an instant test or blessing He has still given it to you. We are not to complain over our obstacles but instead embrace them with gladness in our hearts and with thanksgiving. This is the undeniable message He constantly spoke. Read the New testament and see for yourselves. We are "to pick up our cross and follow Him daily." Put off the selfish attitude of "it is all about me"- and put on the new. If there is even a flicker of doubt that an unborn child is alive and abortion is murder we shalt NOT do it.
I see that you have no regard for Christianity and so maybe we should take a step back from that for a moment (for your sake) and you can answer some of the non-Christian aspects of abortion by answering the questions I have asked of any pro-choice person-- this is so that everyone that reads this can get a very good idea of where exactly you are coming from. A challenge that no one, as of yet, has been able to answer. Here they are again:
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
Comment by S.L.
The Political Brief
Comment by S.L.
The Political Brief
For Ruby and the others who think abortion is simply the removal of an unwanted lump of "unviable tissue", maybe you need to take a good, close look at what you approve of. I have yet to see the word "Choice" written on the face of a pre-born baby. It is a human being with a right to live as much as anyone who is breathing air outside the womb. If you can view all the following pictures and still be "pro-choice" there is just no hope for you. You wouldn't blink at the savage murder of a one year old, either. If you find yourself stunned, shocked or horrified by what these photographs show, then you not only have a brain, but a heart as well and won't be able to support abortion again without seeing the images. If you refuse to look, then you're nothing but a slimy coward who prefers to spout approval of cold blooded murder without being willing to look at the victims you condemn without benefit of a trial. This isn't about religion, exactly, even though it proves the Christian, pro-life position. It is as much about science and the bloody reality of a nice, antiseptic little word like "abortion." Click below if you dare. If not, admit defeat and shut the &^%$ up.
Really Long Link Really Long Link Really Long Link Really Long Link
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
Roe v. Wade outlined that abortions are permissible for any reason a woman chooses, up until the "point at which the fetus becomes viable”. The Court also held that abortion after viability must be available when needed to protect a woman's health.
Viability is the potential to be able to live outside the mother's womb (albeit with artificial aid) and is usually placed at about 28 weeks but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks.
As of 2006, the youngest children to survive premature birth were born in the USA and Canada and were 22 weeks gestational age.
CDC Abortion Surveillance data from 2003 (USA) tells us the highest percentages of reported abortions were for women who were unmarried (82%), white (55%), and aged <25 years (51%). Of all abortions for which gestational age was reported, 61% were performed at <8 weeks' gestation and 88% at <13 weeks, only 1% at >21 weeks.
An abortion is considered to be therapeutic when it is performed to:
• to save the life of the pregnant woman
• to preserve the woman's physical or mental health
• to terminate pregnancy that would result in a child born with a congenital disorder that would be fatal or associated with significant morbidity
• to selectively reduce the number of fetuses to lessen health risks associated with multiple pregnancy
An abortion is considered to be elective if it is performed for any other reason.
The pictures shown on Pro-Life websites are generally of >8 weeks gestation, so of the minority (12%) of abortions performed
The National Right To Life website provides the statistic that 7% of all abortions in the USA are performed due to rape/incest (<0.5%) or the health of the mother or baby (medical therapeutic)
I was very interested to see the discussion between Ruby and TBT about biblical references, it does seem there is a lot of room for interpretation (as I suspected). It is of course every Christian womans right to choose and if they decide to base that decision on their interpretation of the bible that is up to them . . . I am glad it has been debated to show the ambiguities in the text, it is a decision no woman takes lightly and it is important to have as much information as possible.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Hopefully, she will also get the same support if she chooses the other option.
And yes, the Bible is almost impossible to decipiher these days. What people must understand is that it was written by the ancient Jews for the ancient Jews. Even the seemingly simple commandment "thou shalt not kill" is open to interpretation.
To try to apply all its teachings today, or even simply to try and understand it today, is to deny ourselves the benefit of thousands of years of social, political and intellectual progress.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
So it has been determined that a child id not considered "human" until it can survive on it's own? So when some awful creature gives birth to a full term baby and dumps it into a garbage can, is that murder? I mean, could the baby have survived on it's own? Could it find food and water? Could it escape from danger? Is the baby physically and mentally able to take care of itself? If ability to survive outside the mother is the main criteria for deciding who is and is not human and worthy of life, at what age shall we stop killing them? One year olds need their mothers to survive. So do two year olds, and three and four... Maybe a five year old child would stand a chance... Everyone under the age of five needs a parent (or someone, at least) to insure their survival.
Shall we consider toddlers non-human and kill them at will with immunity from prosecution?
The argument doesn't hold much water, does it? The only difference between a "fetus" that "isn't human" and an adult that "is human" is size and maturity. The genetic code is in place before a woman knows that she is pregnant. Heart beat and brainwaves start very quickly, usually before the mother is fully aware that she is carrying a baby. The only thing that changes is the size of the person between conception and adulthood. Does one's right to live have to depend upon something like size? Apparently it does...
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
Are you just saying this because you have drawn the line and refuse to budge? Or are you simply oblivious to what Morgan Bell has already stated? Especially about your faveourite little pictures, the ones that constitute the lowest number of terminations, more often than not for medical reasons that goes beyond the black and white concept of life and death you hold so dear.
The US is ranked seventh amongst countries where babies are dumped straight after birth. All because of the negative social stigma associated with abortion no doubt. Yet you defend that, you think you have all the solutions and it is your god given duty to preach it to everyone else. It's a sad statement but those who are pro-life, such as yourself, tend to care the least or life. You're not pro-life, you're only trying to push home your own little agenda.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Are you now Ruby's defender and surrogate? Isn't it odd how she has no comment about the pictures. I wonder if she is as cold as you are or if she's just a mouthy coward who likes to expound on her "beliefs" but is afraid to look at the results of her "choices."
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
Just to clarify, yes i clicked on every link you provided, viewed the pictures (and the labels describing the stage of germination) and read over the websites, i even quoted statistics from one of the sites you provided a link for.
I didnt see any pictures of a fetus under 8 weeks, but i did read the list of attributes that a fetus develops over its gestation.
I thank you for the resources and yes i have made my comments in an informed rational manner.
From what i have read of Ruby and Ahmed they in their comments here and their own blogs it seems they also have read through all the information and have constructed their beliefs from an educated point of view.
I stand by my personal opinion that, as Ahmed so aptly summarised, the pictures "constitute the lowest number of terminations, more often than not for medical reasons", and believe that every woman (Christian or otherwise) is entitled to make the decision whether to abort a fetus from her body before the stage where it is considered medically and legally "viable".
If a fetus is not able to live (even with all the artificial aid of modern technology) outside of its host, the mother, then i believe it remains the choice of the mother whether to continue to host the fetus in her body.
I would encourage all women to address the decision in the first tri-mester, as it appears the majority do.
I definately do not agree with the abuse or neglect of children of any age, including pre-mature babies, and once born a child should be given every opportunity to flourish, but in this day and age with current medical technology a fetus would not survive outside the womb earlier that 21 weeks . . . this may change in the future with developments in modern medicine, we may all be incubated in test tubes from conception and the mother may not be used as a vessel at all, and at that time i am sure the states secular laws will evolve to suit the technology.
I appreciate your position and am happy to read over any Pro-Life materials in the spirit of education, but as an educated person i still maintain that the right to choose is paramount.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Firstly, Bradish, those links you provided have gotten us way off topic again.
Secondly, I know enough of the pro-life movement to know they doctor and even fake their propoganda.
The Silent Scream video was sped up to make it look as though the fetus was screaming in pain and trying to escape.
Also. the doctor in question deliberately performed a late-term abortion in order to mislead viewers into thinking that this video is representative of all abortions. It is not.
Thirdly, viability is not the same as dependence- a new born child depends on adults for its continued survival. However, its body is capable of functioning of its own accord. As Morgan pointed out, a fetus less than 21 weeks, physically needs a woman's body, as such it is not yet its own entity. It's not a separate person. That is the medical and legal definition.
1/3 of all pregnancies spontaneously abort in the first trimester Bradish. Did you know that? Some things are not meant to be, whether it is nature or a woman who makes that decision is simply none of your business.
I wonder Bradish, do you cry for the hundreds and thousands of Iraqi children who have died since the first Gulf War as you do for these fetus's? Iraqi children who DID feel pain, who DID have parents that loved them, who DID have dream and aspirations.
Don't bother answering that question. I know it is way off topic. And I already know the answer.
Comment by Don Lee
White Line Philosophy
Comment by S.L. Bradish
As for you, Ruby, showing pictures of murdered babies is not at all off-track, since it was indeed the focus of this post, wasn't it? Or did you think this was just a showcase for Ruby SoHo to be able to spout her pro-abortion rhetoric and try to make Christians look bad? maybe that was what you thought...
Not that it's any of your business, Ruby, but I know more about miscarriages than most people. I had five! So don't act like you have some superior knowledge. I can't understand why a woman (for lack of a better word) would do such an awful thing on purpose. My knowledge of what it's like to lose a baby is one of the reasons why I'm so against abortion. Even some of the fools who kill their children get to spend the rest of their lives regretting what they did, while others, like you, apparently celebrate the death of their children. Ruby, you are speaking from a position of which you know absolutely nothing and are hoping all the pro-choice garbage will protect you. It won't.
No doctor who would make a pro-life video would intentionally kill a child as an illustration, don't be ridiculous. As for the "Silent Scream", what do think the babies (whose nervous systems are functioning, in case you didn't know) feel as they're being ripped to pieces or scalded to death or dragged out feet first only to have their brains sucked out? Are you so incredibly ignorant or morally numb that you think they either don't feel pain or that they "celebrate" their "mother's choice?"
Find a pregnant woman, Ruby, if you can stand to be near one, and ask her to do a simple experiment. Ask her to place something hot against her belly and see if the baby moves toward it. In most cases, it will. My niece only moved toward a cold spot while she was inside my sister. Then try to think for just a moment and wonder why the baby can tell the difference in temperatures. It's a really tough one, Ruby.
Ask another pregnant woman to stand still while you fire a gun near her belly and see if the baby jumps from the sound. The only baby I ever knew who didn't react to loud noises was my youngest daughter. She was deaf.
Some time ago, the state of Florida was recommending that all pregnant women listen to classical music during their pregnancies in order to soothe and teach the babies before they were born. Sure enough, most of the babies in the survey seemed brighter and more alert at birth. Of course, being just "lumps of unviable tissue" that couldn't happen, right?
As for how I feel about all the children killed by terrorists, I mourn for each and every one of them. I also mourn for their families and pray that we don't cut and run from Iraq so that the killing (by terrorists) can continue. You obviously know as little about politics and global issues as you know about pre-born children. How anyone can be so ignorant in the information age is beyond me! But you seem to do it very well.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I mention Iraq because Bradish is constantly preaching about how much she "loves life". I am merely asking her to defend her stance. One would think a pro-life stance would hold in all circumstances and treat all life equally. Not so with Bradish.
And those Iraqi kids were not killed by terrorists. 99% of them were killed by America. Either though bombs, gunfire, uranium or sanctions which lead to their malnutrition and starvation.
Don't try to debate with me kid, you are out of your depth.
At least, I hope you are a kid, if not, I do worry.
Comment by Macey K. Welmain
She spent many years in school studying gestation and the development of the unborn and a good many afterward delivering babies.
She opted out of the job because she said that all doctors know that an uborn baby is still a baby. And while a few of them (her friends) were talking her into it as they themselves had been in the business for many years prior, it really all revolved around money. That was the bottom line. There is quite a bit of it to be made as long as there is ignorance in the world.
I remember her talking to me as a young woman and telling me that all though those certain doctors are right in the fact that we all are going to make ouir choices in life and this particular fight would never be won by either side, she told me that they said she would eventually get used to it as they had and that they were wrong it making it sound so harmless.
While she wasn't necessarily on either side as a 'duty' she did have an awful time with the concept of abortion as the scientific reasoning supports the claim of murder. She enrolled me in a couple of courses at a community college while I also went to highschool so I could learn more biology than the teachers cared to teach. Then she took me to her work caring for expectant mothers so I could see the babies moving, exercising their lungs (breathing the fluid to prepare themselves), responding to music, reacting to hot & cold against the mother's skin (on the tummy), and even showing me how to tickle a baby's foot using slight pressure when they extend their foot outward.
I was fortunate enough to see several pregnant mothers through out their pregnancy and watch how a baby moves, and reacts inside the womb not to mention the delivery process. I also witnessed a few premature deliveries. The neo natal care units are really something. The most amazing thing I ever saw was a baby born at an incredible 5 months old. Fully developed but very tiny. Without the nurses and doctors he might not have lived... but we all need somebody to care for us. Someone once said that a baby only counts if they can live outside the womb. That is just silly. Life is still life. A thing that is not alive can not grow, it can not respond, it can not be tickled or move and it can not have a heart beat. So, when you stop a heart beat and bodily function from another living (functioning/growing) being it is murder.
Doctors call it an abortion but they all know exactly what it is. I am not here defend any viewpoint and really I probably wouldn't have even commented but I feel that some of the pro-choice opinions are ignoirant and based upon irresponsible rhetoric as to the procedures and biological facts about unborn babies.
If any one person denies this obvious fact then you need to go to school and take biology and anatomy (I mean the real courses not some cracker jack elementary lesson) and maybe then you'll become educated to the facts at hand.
Comment by S.L.Bradish
Really Long Link
Comment by Damo
A simple apology for insulting people with your own projectile bigotry would be what the honourable person would do in a situation like this.
But of course it was not bigotry if it is someone you hate.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I find it curious that you demand an apology from Luke here but from no-one else.
Whilst I can't say I agree with some of Luke's cruder sentiments at least he has not insulted anyone directly here. He made general statements that were designed to inflame tempers. He did not actually direct any vitriol at any individuals.
Comment by S.L.Bradish
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Besides which, I didn't target anyone specifically, yes I did call TBT's ideology "appalling", but that is hardly vitriol. I questioned her beliefs, I did not defame her character as you and your cronies have been doing.
There is a difference.
Glass houses, Bradish.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
It's late, You're tired.
Nighty night, don't let the Muslims bite...
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Comment by Teacher of Biology - CA
Comment by TBT
I am happy to read the comment form Macey. Thank you for staying long enough to write your position. It is important to realize exactly what an abortion is.
To the teacher, thank you as well for stopping by. I appreciate all of the support from any teachers will to educate teenagers on the responsibility of sex. Now that is quality sex education.
Have a great Sunday! And try and relax ok?
Comment by TBT
Ooops, that should read *willing* not "will"
Sorry, I was trying to type quickly
Comment by Fellow Christian
"If there is even a doubt in our minds if something is sinful or an abomination to God we shall not do it."
- You have clearly explained much more than a mere doubt is present regarding abortion in Christianity. KUDOS!
Comment by Damo
I believe that Luke was responding to me.
Not you.
Comment by Dictionary Definitions
CONCEPTION: The inception of life. (Inception means: the start or begining)
Notice the word "life" so, how can anyone argue that an abortion is death to a life? If something is alive and then you 'abort' it you end that life PERIOD. Sorry to rain on anyone's parade but it is what it is. Oh and in a medical dictionary the term fetus is there... the meaning: an unborn baby.
In the human world there shouldn't be any question of whether a woman's 'fetus' is 'human' or not.... unless of course the mother was doing something hideously wrong like having sex with animals or something of that nature. Good post, you have convinced the logical, common sense oriented and the responsible portion of the population it looks like.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Last I heard abortion was legal in the US as well as Australia.
Deal with it.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Lorna
When a doctor rips apart an unborn baby blood flows from it's tiny body... hence, bloodshed. The end of life is death.
I think the person that wrote this post has successfully proved the point that abortion is murder. Through comments and through the original post the questions have all been answered. Science, religion, definitions, medical knowledge have all proved to be mightier than self centered people with only one agenda... their own. It is clear that nothing matters to these pro-choicers that still continue to be here other than to stick up for their right to murder for convenience.
Yes, it is legal and those that made it so and support it will need to explain to God someday and will undoubtedly be faced with those babies they murdered. Wonder if they'll thank you for exercising your right to take their life? Some how I don't think so.
Great post... you did your job TBT!!!!
Comment by HJ
This is the only conversation that I have ever witnessed where those in favor of abortion were shown for being self absorbed, spoiled people who merely throw temper tantrums when someone has the guts to tell the truth and speak out against their irresponsible and deadly behavior. This guy or girl or whatever that wrote this should talk to people about this topic for a living. I will tell you what! Damn! Awesome.... seriously.
Comment by Lorna
Comment by Don Lee
White Line Philosophy
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
Anyone who takes seriously half the stuff I said earlier on in this thread doesn't deserve an apology, if they're that simple minded. And as for it not being bigotry if it's something I hate, I never said I wasn't bigoted, and if something I said requires an apology just because it offended to you, does that mean everything and anything anyone says that offends MY own personal views ALSO deserves an apology? you massive (and typically christian) hypocrite.
Comment by Damo
How curious that quickly use the term 'typical Christian hypocrite' when at no stage have I revealed what religion I may or may not be. You can assume what you will but that would just be a blatant prejudice. As people have done when I criticized anti Muslim Bigotry. Nor will I tell you what religion or non religion subscribe to.
Please tell what part of this statement is not vilification:
it's ironic that christians should be against abortion as they're the ones who probably should've been aborted the most.
AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?
Please explain how you are willing defend what can only be described as a call for genocide.
If you do not understand how tragic and sad such a statement is then change the Christian to any other group in society, Blacks, Muslims , Buddhists. Then go any crowd of those people and yell it out. Yet if you end trying to explain how finny you are to the anti discrimination tribunal that is you problem.
No one is asking to change your view mind.
It is entirely up to you whether you want to be a proud bigot or not.
My personal opinion is that an honourable man would apologies for the offense regardless of what he thinks about the issue.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
In light of the serving that you have given me in recent days, I find your continued harassment of Luke quite laughable.
So much for your straw man argument.
And, yes, I know Luke was talking to you, not me, but I am now also talking to you.
Christian or not, you are a massive hypocrite.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Damo
I was not addressing you.
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
as for what I wrote... I couldn't care less if it was vilification or not, like I said earlier - if you really believe I wrote that in complete seriousness then you've got more problems than I do.
S. L. Bradish... you are a pathetic human being. Triumph in your glory, bask in it's pathetic glow as it feeds your pasty white pathetic contenance. Lap it up.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
and yeah - you say I'm losing so therefore I must be. What great christian logic. How exactly am I losing? what argument am I even losing? please cretin, give examples and back them up, or go back to dragging around homosexuals and black folk from the back of your pick up truck, or whatever it is you do in your spare time.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Damo
Your memory is defective.
I have intentionally never mentioned any religious preference.
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
Damo
anyways
ARE you a christian?
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Don Lee
White Line Philosophy
Comment by Damo
Anyways.
It is none of your business what I am.
The very question is loaded with discrimination.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Comment by Damo
I have refused to answer the question on the grounds that it is designed as ploy for discrimination.
I have a right to privacy that no misinterpreted passage of the Bible can undermine.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I could care less what fictional character you worship but at least have enough courage in your convictions to stand by what you believe and stop masquerading with this charade of impartiality and "clear thinking".
Comment by Damo
What I have come to realize is this:
Prejudice seems to be your main vice.
Bigotry your second.
Do you want my medical records also?
or what school I went to?
Perhaps you wish to know what colour my skin is too?
All of which, including my religious preference, are none of your damn business.
The very question I find offensive because despite your 'innocent' pronouncements that 'it does not matter to you' I have my doubts. Why ask a question that has no purpose?
Yet there nothing in my wording that proves anything. And to say otherwise is a direct and scurrilous lie. A new vice for you? I doubt it. So go off and dig up your own ammunition like a rabid KKK member, I am familiar with such ploys.
The only reason that you wish to know the answer is to feed your deep seated to desire to spread more hate in the world.
But please do go on. I am so enthralled by the words that you wish to fling about like 'Clear Thinking' and your mastery of it.
Shifting the ground is still a poor line of argument.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
You are really losing the plot. If you are going to accuse me of hate, bigotry and prejudice then back it up son, otherwise get off that pedestal of your own making.
With every post you demean yourself further and have me scratching my head wondering how on earth I fell for your charade in the first place.
Comment by Damo
Certainly.
On the question of prejudice you claimed that I answered a specific question when in fact I did not. You are the one who answered the question with out clear evidence. That is the text book version of prejudice. To pre judge.
On the question of Bigotry:
"Christians do attempt to enforce their beliefs on others"
Begs the question. All of them? Only Christians? What about angry self professed atheists like yourself? Why did you single out only Christians.
"It has taken the Western World the better part of 2000 years to wrench itself free of the tyrannical grasp of the Christian religion(s) and people such as yourself are hell bent on sending us back to the Dark Ages. Never."
Such tolerance in those words. Tyrannical grasp? No point arguing with that logic. You have already decided the answer.
Secondly:
Luke statements were Bigoted and he openly admitted to that fact. Yet you insist upon defending what he wrote. Why would you do that unless you agree with them?
But please do go on.
I am so fascinated about your views on self demeaning behavior.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I personally think that it is your lopsided behaviour on this post that answered Luke's question. I did not pre-judge. I formed an opinion (and yes, I concede it is only an opinion) based on what you wrote. Maybe I have deduced incorrectly. But deduction is not prejudice.
You don't agree that the Inquisition, the Burning Times, The Crusades and The Salem Witch Hunts were tyrannical? Please Damo, the history of the Church is there for all to see. That's not bigotry. That's common sense.
Criticising the history of religious movements and theocracies is not bigotry. Is calling the regimes of Stalin and Pol Pot tryannical bigotry towards all Communists? If I criticise a Muslim woman's stoning for having the audacity to be raped, am I exhibiting bigotry towards Muslims?
As for the second half of that statement, all my comments were based on what people wrote here and the clearly outlined intentions of the pro-life movement in general. Yes, I think that trying to criminalise abortion is a regression to a less enlightened way of thinking and a step back for women. Ditto for intelligent design theory and the question of gay marriage rights. Think of that what you will but don't try to label a legitimate opinion bigotry. If the idea of abortion is contrary to one's beliefs then I can respect that. What I can't respect is when I am told that my own beliefs are inferior simply because I do not get them from God. That is the essence of this post and the essence of the pro-life argument.
And no, I did not defend what Luke wrote, in fact I clearly stated that "I don't agree with his cruder sentiments". In bringing Luke's comments up I was just asking you to explain why you chose to single out his comments but ignore others which were far more vindictive and offensive. It was pretty obvious to me that Luke was just stirring the pot for a laugh. However, some other comments here had clearly malicious intent and you did not call their authors on them. Why? Why only pick on the pro-choice crowd and allow the others off scott-free? Furthermore, those other comments were personal attacks, not the broad generalisations Luke made. Unlike Luke, they meant every word they wrote.
Whether you realise it or not you are being hypocritical. You claim to be impartial and clear headed but you took a side right from the start.
Comment by Damo
I did not bother reading what you wrote because I figure the answer is going to be the same anyway.
Says You.
Now that will save us both a lot of time.
But please carry on.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
And you accuse me of prejudice. Good one.
I really did look up to you. Can you believe that? Because
I sure can't.
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
what a cop out! If you can't even openly stand by your beliefs then you have even less right to be involved in this 'discussion' than I do. It's quite clear now that you most likely ARE a Christian and you just don't want to admit it because it shows what a useless clutching of straws your last few digressions have been. I'm quite positive you mentioned or implied your christian-ness back when you first signed up here, so who can tell who's misremembering what.
And S.L., you're always ready to lambast my crudeness but it's somewhat ironic how often you yourself stoop to namecalling, and how it is often without a single shred of any kind of substance. Simply stating that I am sad, or that I am losing the argument, doesn't actually prove anything. (other than how craptastic you are).
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Damo's religion has nothing to do with his opinion. And he has every right to keep his personal business to himself.
Comment by Damo
Says you.
Comment by Damo
Would like to know my medicare number also?
Perhaps you may be unaware of the Australian laws relating to discrimination. I can only recommend that if you work in a large corporation to go visit your HR department and ask for all the policies and legislative references to back them up. You cannot ask to know someone's religion when they join a company, a blog site or any public office. You cannot ask their political leanings. You cannot ask the sexual preferences. Why is that? Because none of those matter to whether the person is fit to do the job. Please by all means join a large work place and start asking everyone if they are a Christian or not and see how long it takes before you told to mind your own damn business.
Imply what you like but I care not for your implications. You are only asking because the answer matters to you. A diversionary tactic to avoid your direct answer to a direct question.
Which brings me back to what we were talking about.
Why did you write such inflammatory statement as:
it's ironic that christians should be against abortion as they're the ones who probably should've been aborted the most.
Can you explain the meaning of such comments?
Slowly take your time. I am sure that those whom you have called to be killed before they are born will be tickled pink with your humorous answer. Perhaps you could follow it up with some racist jokes and have us all laughing together.
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
and as for all that other stuff you wrote, whatever mate, you wanna keep your religion a secret, you go ahead. It's funny you should talk about diversionary tactics, because in all those paragraphs you didn't even give an actual reason for not answering my question beyond the fact that you wish to keep it a secret. Are you ashamed of your religion? All that stuff about H.R. you wrote is hilarious. We're not in the office, dude, this is a public forum where personality and opinion are one and your own beliefs can and will never be seperate from the things you say in much the same way a politician or anyone else who offers their opinion in a public forum can do little to excuse their own reticence when it comes to backing up what they say with what they do.
If you want to talk about religious topics then of course your own religion is relevant to the issue. To continuously excuse it as 'none of your business' is as ridiculous as Roy Cohn's homophobic actions or Daniel Burros' career as a member of the Nazi party. (feel free to google or wiki these names if the skewed significance escapes you). You want to weigh in on a religious debate and claim some kind of objectivity? It aint ever gonna be believable so long as you keep 'taking the fifth', as it were.
Comment by Damo
In other words you wish to disassociate yourself from the comments you made and the offense that they may have caused?
Your intention was to be funny but it fell flat and you had no way of digging your self out other than to blame the victim for taking offense.
That is precisely what I got from your last explanation.
Everything else is just noise.
You were trying to shift the ground away from your actions to another subject, any subject as long as it is not what you did. That is why you keep asking me to surrender my private information. Yet no one has asked for your private information.
Now maybe you get a good laugh asking jews to be tattooed with a serial number. It is only for their own good.
Argumentum ad hominem
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Oh dear.
And you have not actually listened to a word Luke just said.
Says I.
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
and yeah mate, I'm a nazi, a big fat hebrew Nazi.
Comment by Damo
Says You
Comment by Damo
You responded to me.
I did not chase you.
I merely commented that dumb jokes were no exchange for rational argument.
Your response was that victim deserved your scorn because they happen to be part of a collective that you find repulsive. We are all left wondering why you hold people in such contempt but I guess we will never know.
Guilt by Association.
As a face saving measure you decided that you would attack the questioner by asking to reveal personal detail about myself. That is something that I will not provide the Internet unless so chose of my own.
Argumentum ad hominem
Now you persist on following the tract that it is okay for you to continue to ask personal questions and pretend that you have no agenda for doing so. Am I to believe that you ask random questions without a purpose? Seeing veracity that you have taken to others you leave me wondering.
I am merely reminding you that my right to privacy should be respected as much I have been of yours. I am also reminding you that demanding private information can have dire consequences. Wasn't it the Nazi who demanded to know the religion of people on supposed innocent ground. Just an analogy. Nothing personal like calling for the extermination of Christians before they are born.
Enjoy Luke
You are starting to repeat your prejudices again.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
keep on truckin dood
Comment by Damo
It was a crack up from all sides.
We had a very big audience.
Damo
Comment by Luke
Old Movies
Cane Toad Warrior
Comment by Damo
That is your perogative.
Comment by Damo
That is your prerogative.
Comment by Sean, son of John
"And Be Ye Not Conformed To This World..."
The Absolute Truth which is God's Word is no less true for those who disregard it or disbelieve it. Not believing the Bible or the Truth of Jesus Christ does not make it any less true, it only makes it impersonal to those who reject it.
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever..." and etc. etc. etc.
Please check out my blog posts and profile here on Orble, also I have a site and blog page at www.myspace.com/seanycash01
wherein I post sermons and articles calling the church back to renewal, revival, and reformation...I will subscribe to your blog......
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Just a quick question, TBT, and apologies for my late arrival; are you a student of theology, or an ordained minister?
I was just curious as to what sort of qualification(s)/background you have to teach basic principals of Christianity. Also, would these teachings be your personal interpretations, or are they based upon the interpretations of others?
Comment by Truth B. Told
Hidden Eternal Treasures
D Armenta- Personally, I choose not to make this blog about me... that is not my goal. When I teach the principals of Christianity it is according to the Bible. This is the reason I post scripture, for the purpose of inspiring readers to open their bibles and find out what it has to say. This is not to say that I have no experience in this matter but I refuse to glorify myself or pat myself on the back or anything at all that can take away from the glory to God.
In short, I take my cues from Him and Him alone.
Also, as for interpretations, every person who reads the bible will form their own opinion. I am merely aiming them in the right direction to find the answers in which they seek. I can not change the words that are written, only call attention to them.
I have included some scripture to read regarding disciples teaching the Word if anyone cares to see what standards God has for those wanting to teach others.
--Matt 4:4
--Matt 10:7
--Matt 28:18-28
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
That's not quite what I was asking, though. Theologians, historians and students of divinity pretty much all agree that the bible in its various versions can be interpreted in more than one context; wouldn't you agree?
Comment by TBT
Yes, I would agree to a certain extent:
All people are different and would like to believe what makes them happy. If someone can excuse their behavior by broadening the spectrum of truth then I believe that many will. So, as for various people believing or interpreting various things the answer is yes- but the question should be by what standards and whose glory?
The bible is very clear on it's positions If you really gather together all the scriptures related on the subject (s) It has a very clear path of right and wrong behavior. When it consistently refers to an unborn baby as a 'child' or the term pregnancy referred to as "with child" this shows without a doubt that the unborn is a child. Then the fact of not murdering comes to light- along with Jesus's own statement of pain and tears when he talks about the baby's being ripped from the womb and murdered, etc. This along with many other Christian factors do more than merely suggest that it is wrong.
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Let me clarify my previous question a bit about what I meant by different interpretations..
..there are quite a few sub-categories, or denominations, of religious groups who fall under the title of Christians, i.e. Lutherans, Protestants, Fundamentalists, Catholics, etc. Each of these groups has its own interpretation of the bible scriptures, see what I'm getting at?
Ergo, a Lutheran Christian has a different set of religious codes and mores than, say, a Pentecostal Christian.
Would you say that is a true statement?
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Comment by TBT
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
I find it so amazing in posts like this, that when the two sides cant stand the others viewpoint, they refuse to listen to each other as people. Wheres the love man?
Amen Lilla.
Whoa! Would that be PRIDE right there? This really gets my balls in an uproar - you say you are teaching christian values, yet both you and SL have massive amounts of pride, believing that you know better than everyone else. Doesnt that void your precious christianity right there?
Oh, but thats right, the God of Love will forgive you that sin, for it was done in his good name doing his good work, and being a God of forgiveness, he will forgive you for it.
So long as you dont have an abortion. Then you're just done for.
I waited so long for David to bring his particular brand of Catholisim to one of these rants, and all he does is lecture us on the ethics of a working man....
Good does the work of evil. Evil has nothing to do.
Pro lifers will be the cause of critical population and the slow strangulation of the earth.
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Then, TBT, by your own admission there are many different ways that christians interpret the bible. Now, my question to you is: which interpretation in particular are you teaching on this blog?
Also, can you offer me some means of proof that your particular version is the correct version?
Comment by S.L.
The Political Brief
Comment by TBT
My version? If it says that we should not kill... then there is only one interpretation to that... do not kill. I take the word of God very seriously and anyone calling themselves a Christian should do the same or take on another title of religion that preaches murder as a good and just action when every it suits them or facilitates their selfishness or helps with convenience issues (whatever the reason behind the motive may be).
God does love us and He does forgive us but only if we admit that we were in the wrong and ask for forgiveness for our wicked ways.
Again thanks to all who comment and if you don't like to hear the truth according to the Holy Bible then maybe you should read something more on your level.
Comment by Laney
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
I dont recall saying that either.....Nope, Just re read my comment. Never said that.
Its not obeying Gods Law that makes you guilty of Pride, it is the fact that you believe your interpretation is the only one.
Yes, SL I have a massive abundance of pride. In my acievements, education and in my life. And because I no longer consider myself Catholic, I dont have to feel guilty about that.
That is exactly what I have done. Thankyou.
As for the Bible being truth, yes, I once believed that. Until I became a student of history, and I realized the great amount of interpretation that is needed when reading something written so many years ago, by other people who were just like us. It is a historical source and it is useful, I dont deny that, but you cant take it literally any more that you can take Tacitus or Seutonius seriously.
Just wondering....How do you guys equate the contradicting passages? Love thy neighbor and then an eye for an eye? That all animals are under Adams will to do with as he chooses but then says all animals are sacred and of their own selves? I just want to know how you interpret the exact contradictions.
Laney....I didnt write the original comment, but no matter how many times I read it, I cant find a refrence to religion at all in it.
Comment by Loving It!!
first, you come to this blog without even the slightest desire to learn something.
second, you are trying to interject your agenda whenever and wherever you can without any respect for the sacred principals, teaching, etc.
thirdly, no matter what anyone says to you nothing will ever satisfy you. You 'act' as though you are trying to be a voice of reason but anyone with a clue can see through the BS. We know, as you know, that you have no intention of doing anything here but stirring the pot- yes, it is a sad, pathetic need to diss on other people's religion, a thing by the way that holds value and purpose (everything your existence clearly defies)
I am trying to be a Christian and this blog helps me but it really ticks me off to no end that people like you try to screw with our immortal souls merely because you have enough sense to see that there is anything above you and your delusional world of no responsibilites.
I am not a perfect Christian no one is! I am a sinner. I feel the need to explain exactly what you do by planting seeds of doubt and destruction wherever you go. It really is a shame but why do you have to destroy that which is good? Don't worry, YOU don't have to change YOUR thoughts on this subject. YOU can live YOUR life however YOU choose- But this is for Christians that want to do something better with their existance instead of just killing and theiving and lying and whoring as you obviously enjoy.
Why are you here exactly? Can't you leave people alone who are trying to change their ways and live a more peaceful life? Or do you just love to hinder all new Christians from exploring their faith? Do you love provoking others to anger to serve your own sick needs? I just don't get it. What kicks do get from this? This blog is for Christians... you aren't one nor do you wish to learn how to become one so why are you here?
Oh, and as for the comment above about the rape thing and then the one in response... anyone with common sense can see the relation, I guess that says a lot why it is that you don't.
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Let your discussions with other commentors be separate, please; I am not attacking you, merely looking for some answers. Now:
By your own admission there are many different ways that christians interpret the bible. My question to you is: which interpretation in particular are you teaching on this blog?
Also, can you offer me some means of proof that your particular version is the correct version?
Comment by TBT
I believe that I have already answered that question, but I will try again in another manner. It is true that people can twist scripture until it suits them, yes, and even some people who call themselves Christians do it.
As for "my version being correct" there is no "version" here (as I explained above). I take scripture to be truth. Therefore, mine is a common sense approach. Taking the text and applying common sense to every facet is a logical and sensible way to learning more about the word of God. I do not play the guessing game "oh, I think this means this or that means that.." If the bible says "DO NOT____ " then common sense says "DO NOT" do it.
Here's the thing. If people choose not to believe what I teach here on this blog that is their choice, they should simply disagree and move on as I would when I visit blogs that rant and rave spreading lies and what-not. Still, I can say this to you and everyone else but you will, in the end, choose to believe or not- So, I fail to see what purpose this serves.
As Christians if there is even the slightest action that could be a crime against God or a sin in any way then we are told NOT to do it or we will suffer the consequences. I am putting these teachings out there for people to learn.
Comment by S.L.
The Political Brief
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
I am here to have my questions answered, ok Truth Be Told, you say that you obey everything in the Bible, no one answered my question as to how do you deal with the contradictions in the Bible?
What do you REALLY believe is going to happen when you die?
Can you accept the possibility that God may not be what you expect/want him to be?
I once believed the Bible and the Catholic principles utterly, blindly and with perfect faith. It was only after I educated myself further that I learned to question it and I found much of it was based on lies. Horrible things have been done in the name of God.
The Inquisition. The Crusades.
Do you believe your God is the same as the one in the Koran, or in Buddhisim? Or would you go to war on the sinners that dont believe in your God, as so many have before you?
I am not attacking your Faith. Faith is a beautiful thing. I am merely asking you to question it and think for yourself, rather than swallowing the entire Bible as if every word of it was true. It was written by men, men are imperfect, henceforth, you must admit that it needs interpretation.
Even though that was never my intention, it was the biggest compliment I have ever recieved.
Comment by TBT
As for the crusades and inquisition I do not believe that was appropriate. Again you assume that all Christian must automatically believe that was right. It is kind of like saying that all white people wanted or still want slaves because 'some' once owned them. Simply not true. Those times were caused by pride, egos and uncontrollable hate. That is merely my opinion as it is with countless Christians but a part of me thinks you wanted to hear a more personal answer than that of strictly scripture which this blog is based on.
I know who God is as He said that the Word was Truth and I have FAITH in that.
As for what I believe will happen when I die... again FAITH tells me that it is as it is written and I have no need, desire or reason to doubt Him or His word.
On a personal note, it appears as though you hold much resentment for the time in your life that you had faith. For what ever reason I am sorry for you. I will pray for you and hope that true Christians will step up to help you through this doubting point in your life. I hope that I and others in our faith will show you love and kindness and maybe lead you a little closer to path home. I sincerely hope that you have a good night Kleonaptra and if you need to talk or have more questions I will do my best as a humble servant of our Father above and Christ our Lord to help you.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
That is true and I dont deny it. I thankyou for your sorrow but truly it is unessesary - it is that anger that has forced me to carefully analyse everything and question the world and open my mind. It may surprise you to know that I believe in both evolution and creationisim at the same time. I believe in the Creator, but as is so clearly illustrated here, to call it 'God' creates too many problems as the word means too many things to too many people.
This - an indeed most of your first paragraph - suggests that you take an interpretation of the Bible as you see fit to understand. No different to what Ruby or myself has done.
I believe that is still going on in the hierarchy of the church today. The vatican is supremely rich and corruption is evident in it.
Understand, from everything I have made refrence to, that it is the organisation of the church more than the faith itself I have a problem with - inconsistancies in the religion force me to see it as a lie - if the words of the disciples were holy, why did there have to be a new testament? Even here we have mentioned different 'versions' of the Bible and a christian friend of mine recommended I read 'Isaiah' and I found it wasnt in the old Catholic Bible we have. Why? The story keeps changing and hence it proves that the Bible is corrupted and no longer even useful as a historical source.
But hopefully in lives to come you will gain a greater knowledge, that is what the game of life is for. Peace be with you. Enjoy the Popes visit.
Comment by Interesting...
AND....
"planting seeds of doubt and destruction wherever you go. It really is a shame but why do you have to destroy that which is good?"
_____________________________ _______________
AND...
So, by your own logic...
inconsistancies in your comments forces others to see your words as a lie.
Comment by Interesting...
If you were a Catholic as you say, then you would know that the disciples were IN the New Testament not the old. The New Testament is When Jesus fulfilled the prophesy... his followers and friends were the disciples. And the books written were not by what are refered to as the 'disciples' but from prophets that God appointed the task of writing that which they lived to serve His purpose in enlightening mankind to the perils of sin.
For a catholic, you sure don't know the religion that well. Also, Catholics read from the Holy Bible - what book are you reading that doesn't have Isaiah? A friend of mine who used to be a nun gave me a bible when I started going to her church (Catholic) I opened it and found this book without a problem.
It seems to me that you know very little of this faith you claim to know. Also, as a teacher of history I find no problems or inconsistencies within the Holy Bible that would suggest it is inaccurate.
Comment by Furthermore...
You see the Holy Bible is the only one that has withstood the test of time. And because it if our faith we believe it to be true. Let's analyze your statement for a moment, you said:
'I am not attacking your Faith. Faith is a beautiful thing. I am merely asking you to question it and think for yourself, rather than swallowing the entire Bible as if every word of it was true. "
First of all the concept of faith has eluded you. Here's why: If you question something then you do not have faith in it. And, if you did have faith in something then you would believe it to be true. Finding faith is 'thinking for yourself' and so is chosing a path --so that was a needless and pointless statement to say the least.
I think you are a very close minded individual and it shows in your writing and lack of understanding. In your errogance of pretending to know more than you actually do about faith, Christianity, the bible and God Almighty, you have displayed your ignorance.
Also it is not PRIDE that we have just because we have faith in Christianity and know the Holy Bible to be the word of truth, it is faith... that is the very definition of faith: to believe in something with all of your heart. In an essence you are belittling it when you accuse those that believe of merely being prideful as if their faith didn't measure up to your standards.
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Well, let me try and re-phrase my questions a bit, then; sorry for any confusion.
When I ask "what version" of Christianity you are teaching here, TBT, I mean "whose interpretation of which bible?" In other words;
1) from which group that falls under the term "Christians"-- Baptist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Methodist, Protestant, Catholic, Born Again, Mormon, etc. etc. etc.--('cause you know, there are some pretty radical differences in the ways some of these groups interpret the particular bible they use as a reference) do you teach interpretations? Also,
2) from which interpretation of the bible are you teaching here? King James, Douay, Godbey, Geneva, Dead Sea Scrolls, Living, Cotton Patch, CTNT, Dartmouth, John Wesley? Old testament, new testament? Does your religion's version include the apocrypha or not?
See what I'm asking here? Saying "I teach the principals of Christianity" is kind of a generic statement. It's like saying you teach the principals of human language, know what I'm saying?
What I'm trying to establish here is whose principals of whose interpretation of which bible you're teaching.
Comment by TBT
This is what is failed to be seen. I am teaching CHRISTIAN PRINCIPALS ...you can call it a version, etc. but that is where faith comes into it. This is my faith as well as Christians from around the world. This is a blog teaching on the Christian faith from the Holy Bible. You have free will to agree or not, to have faith or not- so do we. Therefore if a CHRISTIAN comes to read they are learning about their faith and the things that are taught in the Bible. I do not expect a muslim, athiest, etc. to come around and understand the teachings here nor would I expect to go to a blog that teaches these things and understand why they believe as they do--- This is a mutual respect issue. If you do not understand what being a Christian means do not come here expecting to be taught by your own standards or guidelines of what you think this religion should be. That is not the point or purpose here.
Any person can choose whether they are a a Christian or not, but they can not bend the rules of our ways to suit their selfish conveniences. That is taught throughout the Bible.
D Armenta:
To answer the best I can is:
A) The King James Version.
B) Including both Old and New Testaments
C) As far as whose principals it would be God's laws and comandments and Jesus's testamonies as it is written in the Holy Bible.
* Also pastoral guides and exhaustive referrence in concordances (to make sure that all interpretations are accurate.)
Does that help?
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
I lie for a living mate. At least I admit it.
It is an old catholic bible handed down through the generations in my family. Believe me, my christian friend was as stunned as you to see what was missing. But I stopped reading at about the time I got to dueteronomy. I wrote a post on it.
Pick apart my comments if you like - it utterly terrifies me that you might actually be teaching history. Those poor kids.
You can call me closed minded, thats fine. I choose to see the wonder of the universe and search for something more in it, rather than believing there is some all knowing sentient being sitting up in the sky watching us just because we are 'special'.....Thats a rather selfish standpoint I think.
I was trying to bridge the gap and open your mind just as you wish to 'open' mine. Im not expecting anything from you, but the outpouring of words suggests I have created some lateral thought at least.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Jesus. I'm glad you weren't my teacher.
Comment by S.L.
The Political Brief
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
that you are a fundamentalist christian?
Comment by TBT
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Comment by TBT
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Okay! Thank you for answering my questions, TBT.
When someone says that they are "teaching" something, I like to establish exactly what their teachings are based upon.
Comment by TBT
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Comment by TBT